Thunderhammer Vs. Lightning Claw - Part 2

Carrying on from this article

So except in a few circumstances we had decided that Thunderhammer + Stormshield was better than a pair of Lightning Claws on Assault Terminators.

However somebody asked in the comments section whether that applied to Blood Angels with their whole Furious Charge/Feel no Pain Sanguinary Priest Gimmick.

To be honest I'm not sure.

To the Maths Cave.....

We'll pick on some Tactical Marines like last time or the results won't really tell us anything now will they ;-)

We'll just do the Maths for units charging as that's the only time that Furious Charge will make a difference.

Lightning Claw Terminators Vs. Tactical Squad.

Terminators 'Furious' Charging (+1 I, +1 S)

20 Attacks, 10 Hit, 6.67 Wound + 2.22 from re-rolls means 9 dead Marines.

1 Marine attacks back (presumably this is the Sergeant whom we gave a Power Weapon)

3 Attacks, 1.5 Hit, 0.75 Wound, 0.5 dead terminators after 5+ inv save.

That's 1.5 more than the non Furious Charge version and 4 more than the Thunderhammer guys in case your too lazy to check the last post ;-)

That would also be 9 dead Orks or 12 and a bit dead Guardsmen...

I suppose we might as well see how they do against our other test opponents the Rhino and the Tervigon.

Now there's a vague chance that they might penetrate the Rhino rather than attempting to glance it to death.

Lightning Claw Terminators vs. Armour 10

Vehicle Stationary.

20 attacks, Auto-hit, 3.33 hits penetrate of which 1.11 causes the desired wrecked/exploded result.

Vehicle moved up to 6"

20 attacks, 10 hit, 1.67 penetrate of which 0.56 result in wreck/explode results.

Vehicle moved over 6"

20 attacks, 3.33 hit, 0.56 penetrate of which 0.19 result in wreck/explode results

So we do a lot better Vs. Rear Armour 10 but still are nowhere near the damage output of the Thunderhammers.

Lightning Claw Terminators vs. Tervigon (WS 3, T 6, W 6)

Terminators 'Furious' Charging (+1 I, +1 S)

20 attacks, 13.33 hit, 4.44 Wound + 2.97 from rerolls

So that's one very dead Tervigon.

So they did 4 more wounds than the non BA lot which was enough to kill the Tervigon outright. This would however leave them out in the open during the Tyranid Players turn but as 90% of Tyranid guns are AP 4 or above that shouldn't worry them a great deal unless there's a lot of stuff pointing at them.

In conclusion.

So the Tactical squad is still dead, The Rhino is relatively unscathed and the Tervigon is dead in a single round of combat (which might not necessarily be a good thing as I stated above). Also any extra benefits we get will only be available if were doing the charging...

I'd still give the Blood Angels Thunderhammers even with the extra 5 point tax they have to pay because of the extra difference that 3+ inv. makes. Also those Thunderhammers would become S9 on the charge ;-)

Thoughts and Comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Thunderhammer Vs. Lightning Claw.

I got involved in a debate.....It started with a simple question.....

Thunderhammer and Storm Shield,

or Pair of Lightning Claws?

It seemed obvious to me that the TH/SS combo was better in pretty much every way given it's greater utility and the extra defensive benefits of the Storm Shield but apparently my word isn't as definitive as I would like, lol.

So I've got my shovel out of the shed and unearthed our old friend Mathshammer to help with my argument.

First the important Stats...

The Terminators wielding our weapons are WS 4, I 4, S 4 and have 2 attacks base, plus we'll assume a 5 'man' unit.

Our Weapons are therefore either S4 Power weapons with a re-roll to wound striking at initiative (Lightning Claws) or S8 Power Weapons striking at Initiative 1 with a stunning effect thrown in for good measure (Thunderhammers).

We'll start off going after a generic Marine Squad (10 man) as they're a nice 'average' encounter for most players and we'll give their Sergeant a Power weapon just to even things out a little ;-

We'll also round our dead to the nearest whole number.

We'll let the Lightning Claw Terminators have first attempt.

5x Terminators with Lightning Claws Vs. 10 Tactical Marines.

Terminators charging

Terminators get 20 attacks, 10 hit, 5 wound + 2.5 more from re-rolls.

So 8 dead Marines.

But as we're the same initiative the Marines might take a terminator or 2 with them...

9 attacks, 4.5 hit, 2.25 wound, 0.375 dead Terminators after 2+ Saves.

3 Power Weapon attacks, 1.5 Hit, 0.75 wound, 0.5 dead Terminators after 5+ inv. saves.

So 1 dead Terminators.

A solid win for the LC Terminators with the Marines needing 'Snake Eyes' to pass their Leadership.

Lets try that again with the Marines getting the charge.

Tactical Marines Charging.

Terminators get 15 attacks, 7.5 hit, 3.75 wound + 1.875 more from rerolls.

So 6 dead Marines rounding up.

But we're still the same initiative so the Marines might yet again take a Terminator with them...

18 attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 0.75 dead Terminators after 2+ Saves.

4 Power Weapon attacks, 2 Hit, 1 wound, 0.67 dead Terminators after 5+ inv. saves.

So 1.42 dead Terminators. Rounding down that's just the one, however it's close enough to Rounding up to 2 and that's worth remembering...

Still a victory for the Terminators but a somewhat less conclusive one.

Let's try that same scenario with Thunderhammer Terminators...

5x Terminators with Thunderhammers Vs. 10 Tactical Marines.

Terminators charging

Marines get to strike first this time.

9 attacks, 4.5 hit, 2.25 wound, 0.375 dead Terminators after 2+ Saves.

3 Power Weapon attacks, 1.5 Hit, 0.75 wound, 0.25 dead Terminators after 3+ inv. saves.

Rounding up that kills a Terminator so we'll only be attacking with the 4. However before you get too hopeful remember that in an actual game using whole numbers that could easily be none...

Terminators get 12 Attacks, 6 Hit, 5 wound and kill.

Terminators win by 4 meaning on an average Leadership roll those Marines will be running away.

Tactical Marines charging

Marines get to strike first this time.

18 attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 0.75 dead Terminators after 2+ Saves.

4 Power Weapon attacks, 2 Hit, 1 wound, 0.33 dead Terminators after 3+ inv. saves.

Rounding up that kills a Terminator so we'll only be attacking with the 4. This time it was a whole Terminator at least rather than a fraction of one like last time, lol.

Terminators get 8 Attacks, 4 Hit, 3.33 wound and kill.

Terminators win by 2 or 3 meaning on an average Leadership roll could still send those Marines running away.

Preliminary Conclusions.

So the Lightning Claw guys did slightly better against normal Marines than the TH/SS variety. However, in the world of 5th. Edition those Marines were most likely in a transport of some kind...

The best they can really hope for is an immobilisation of that vehicle, Lets see how that goes shall we,

Lightning Claw Terminators Vs. Vehicle (Armour 10).

Stationary vehicle.

20 attacks, Auto-hit, 3.33 Glancing hits, 0.55 chance of immobilisation.

Vehicle moved up to 6".

20 attacks, 10 hit, 1.67 Glancing hits, 0.27 chance of immobilisation.

Vehicle moved over 6".

20 attacks, 3.33 hit, 0.56 Glancing hits, 0.093 chance of immobilisation.

Well they sucked at that didn't they?

Thunder Hammer Terminators Vs. Vehicle (Armour 10).

Stationary vehicle.

15 attacks, Auto-hit, 10 Penetrating hits, 3.33 chance of wrecked or exploded.

Vehicle moved up to 6".

15 attacks, 7.5 hit, 5 Penetrating hits, 1.67 chance of wrecked or exploded.

Vehicle moved over 6".

15 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.67 Penetrating hits, 0.56 chance of wrecked or exploded.

That was much better.

More conclusions.

The Lightning Claw Terminators were quite frankly useless against a vehicle and wouldn't have been able to hurt one with rear armour 11 at all. The Thunderhammers did a much better job, even having a good chance of destroying a vehicle that had moved flat out. Had this been a mixed unit then the odds would have dropped substantially for each Terminator that had Lightning Claws instead of Thunderhammers which is why I'm personally not in favour of mixed units.

Of course not everybody has Vehicles...Some have fucking great T6, 6 wound Monstrous Creatures instead...

We'll use a Tervigon in this example as they're fairly common in competitive Tyranid Lists,

Lightning Claw Terminators Vs. T6 MC's

Terminators Charging

20 attacks, 13.33 hit, 2.22 wound + 1.11 with re-rolls.

so 3 wounds caused.

Tervigon gets 3 Attacks, 1.5 Hit, 1 Wound, 0.67 dead terminators.

Terminators Charged

15 attacks, 10 hit, 1.67 wound + 0.84 with re-rolls.

so 2.51 wounds caused.

Tervigon gets 4 Attacks, 2 Hit, 1.33 Wound, 0.87 dead Terminators.

Thunderhammer Terminators Vs. T6 MC's

Terminators Charging

15 attacks, 10 hit, 8.33 wound.

Tervigon Dead.

Terminators Charged

12 attacks, 8 hit, 6.66 wound.

Tervigon Dead.

An actual conclusion.

In any normal 40K playing environment your going to face off against a large variety of different units and you need to be able to take on any of them. Thunderhammers scare everything, Lightning Claws scare some things and anything that's shooting at you with the kind of things that kill Terminators won't be that bothered about that 5+ invulnerable save anywhere near as much as they will a 3+ invulnerable save...

Thoughts, Comments and 'but they look like Wolverine and he's cool' counter arguments are (as usual) most welcome.

Bits and Pieces

Nothing in particular leapt out at me as a priority over the last few days so I've done a bit of everything.

Both the Cyclone Missile Terminators have been tidied up, Sorceror/Librarian is based, Telion has been de-Ultramarined and I built a prototype for my Combi-melta Sergeant/Champion then everybody except the Tech Marine got a base coat of my Chapter colours.

Proxing is lame...It's especially lame if you have a model collection and bitz box as big as mine...In fact it may come across as a bit lazy, so I finally built my 'Long Fang' Squads.

Not much to comment on really, but if you want to then go right ahead, lol.

List Design for Beginners - Part 2 - Even more choices.

Carrying on from this article.

This will be a very quick overview as unlike HQ's and Troops the other slots vary tremendously in what they include so I'll get into specifics tomorrow when I start giving examples.

So you've decided on a theme, picked the HQ that suits your army and made sure you don't auto-lose objective missions by picking troops that survive.

So what's next then?

Well actually killing shit might be a start ;-)

Generally most of your 'killing stuff that's close' will be found in the Elite section, 'Killing stuff that's far away' will be in the Heavy Support section.

And stuff that's quick should generally be in the Fast Attack section, though there is the occasional fuck-up like Chaos Spawn which are slow and purposeful...in the Fast Attack slots...Thanks again Mr Gav 'Can't write anything worth a shit' Thorpe.

ELITES

Here you'll find things like Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Fiends and some of the armies support elements like Tech Marines/Priests, Sanguinary Priests etc.

Some books have a variety of effective units in these slots (Pretty much all the Marine Books) unfortunately many have either too much competition for a space on your roster (Fiends, Flamers and Bloodcrushers from the Daemons Codex) or contain certain essential purchases which push the others to the sidelines (Hive Guard in the Tyranid Codex).

These will most likely be the units doing the brunt of the killing and therefore need to be thought about carefully. Synergy is very important here as it is everywhere when designing a list. Sternguard for example are an awesome Marine unit but if you've gone down the 'gunline' path then Rifleman Dreadnoughts will obviously be more useful even though Sternguard are probably a 'cooler' choice. If they bring nothing to the army take something else that does, or failing that write a list that they work in ;-)

HEAVY SUPPORT

Its rare to find a competitive army that hasn't filled all three Heavy support slots almost instantly. At the risk of sounding like a broken record these must compliment your armies overall structure. If the rest of your army is filled with anti-tank then take units that destroy infantry and vice versa.

Imperial Guard players obviously have the best time of it here with virtually any weapon type you can imagine available and due to the ability to squadron they can have pretty much any amount of fire-power they like. They also have access to the Hydra which is bordering on the most under-pointed unit in any codex...Fortunately they can still only fire at one target per slot so it's not all bad, lol.

Marines also have a nice cross section of options but more often than not the Predator is the best choice with 2 S7 and 6 S5 shots at AP4 for a measly 85 points.

Tyranids only have one real choice and that is the pricey but effective Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon, a choice made all the simpler due to the (imo) over-costing of the Carnifex.

FAST ATTACK

Pretty self explanatory really, Assault Troops, Beasts, Fast Skimmers, Bikes etc. all fit into this category.

What's worth noting is that several of the codices have surprisingly shooty units in the Fast Attack section that can be used to add to the weight of fire coming from your army but on a usually more mobile platform. Landspeeders, Attack Bikes, Harpies and of course the Vendettas and Valkyries of the Imperial Guard are all units that fit this category.

The other type of units in this section will be the ones who's job it is too get amongst the enemy quickly and neutralise whatever elements of it they can. Jump Pack Marines (excepting obviously the Blood Angels who get these guys as troops), Raptors, Storm Boyz and Gargoyles are all units that fit this sort of use. Either they move up fast and due to there proximity force your opponent to pour firepower into them rather than something else or even better actually reach that thing and destroy it before it gets a chance to start killing things you need to stay alive (like troops for example).

Despite what many people think, taking the killiest unit from each section isn't always the best idea. The whole army needs to work together with enough redundancy to enable you to survive the odd disaster with enough anti-tank to de-mech your opponent while still being able to kill the guys that fall out ;-)

Tomorrow we'll look at building specific types of lists from the ground up and how to configure squads for the roles you need them to perform.

Thoughts and Comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Marines @ 1500

I'm going to play-test this as an alternative to my TH/SS Terminator list for the 'Throne of Skulls'.

It's basically my old tournament list with a few minor tweaks.

1500 Pts - Space Marines Roster

HQ: Master of the Forge (1#, 120 pts)

1 Master of the Forge @ 120 pts (Converison Beamer)

Troops: Scout Squad (6#, 148 pts)

5 Scout Squad @ 148 pts (Heavy Bolter w/Hellfire Shells; Sergeant Telion)

1 Sergeant Telion

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 105 pts)

1 Dreadnought @ 105 pts

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 105 pts)

1 Dreadnought @ 105 pts

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 105 pts)

1 Dreadnought @ 105 pts

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 225 pts)

9 Tactical Squad @ 225 pts (Meltagun; Missile Launcher; Rhino)

1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)

1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 225 pts)

9 Tactical Squad @ 225 pts (Meltagun; Missile Launcher; Rhino)

1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)

1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)

1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Multi-Melta x1; Heavy Flamer x1)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)

1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Multi-Melta x1; Heavy Flamer x1)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)

1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Multi-Melta x1; Heavy Flamer x1)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Total Roster Cost: 1498

Master of the Forge joins the Scouts.

Marines combat squad, Missile half sits in cover, Melta half moves forward in Rhino and hunts tanks.

Dreadnoughts add to the midfield threat.

Everything else does what it normally does...

Thoughts and Comments are (as usual) most welcome.

List Design for Beginners - Part 1 - Too Many Choices

I've been thinking a lot about list optimisation lately due to the 'Throne of Skulls' being 1500 points and all of my usual lists starting at 1750.

At the 1500 points level, not wasting any points is even more important. Picking the correct units for the job is of course an issue as well...

So where do we start?

Well it has to be the HQ really doesn't it.

He's the guy (or gal, daemon, mutant, robot, etc.) that shapes your army or supports it depending on who he (she, it, etc.) is.

HQ.

We can split HQ's broadly into 3 types.

1) Utility.

2) Army Changer.

3) Death Star.

Obviously some cross over into multiple categories but there are few (if any) that can do everything.

Utility.

The most obvious of these is the Librarian or equivalent thereof. He gives us a chance of neutralising enemy psychic powers (usually within a 24" range, but not always), has a selection of useful defensive powers (Various 'Shields of whatever' type abilities), Offensive ones (ranging from direct shooting attacks to combat enhancers like Warptime) and the more situational abilities (like Fear of the Darkness or Null Zone for example).

Also you have the individuals who enhance one unit directly such as Chaplains, Wolf Priests or give a specific benefit such as Masters of the Fleet in Imperial Guard Command Squads.

All of these have one thing in common, which is they support your army (or aspects of it) but don't actually do the 'Heavy Lifting' themselves.

Army Changers.

Formally a rarity, but have now (since the Space Marine Codex) become more common place are HQ's who change the whole way your army works. Characters who by virtue of the special rules they give you, move your army towards a very specific build. Vulkan is the most obvious example as he makes both your anti-tank (Melta) and anti-infantry (Flamers) much improved as well as making the one unit that doesn't need much help at smashing things (TH/SS Assault Terminators) better at smashing things.

Also in this category or those characters who move units within the FOC usually from something else into the troops slot. Bike Captains who allow you to take Fast Attack Bikers as troops, Mek boyz who allow Killer Kanz as Troops and with the recent arrival of Dark Eldar Haemonculi who shift Wracks also into troops.

Each of these choices forces fundamental changes to your army before you've even started.

Death Stars.

Units with incredible stat-lines or abilities who are there just to kick the shit out of things. That's oversimplifying some of them I suppose as some have other abilities as well. Good examples are the Swarmlord or other tooled-up Hive Tyrants, Lysander or pretty much any Greater Daemon in the Chaos Daemon book.

So, certain HQ's shape our army from the ground up others are added after in order to help out, but whichever you pick they need to compliment your plan not be in spite of it. Vulkan doesn't help a mech gunline particularly and neither would Lysander whereas a Librarian with Shield type power obviously would increase it's survivability by a fair margin.

So that's the guy at the top clarified, now for the guys who do the grunt work...

TROOPS.

So 2/3rds of the standard missions require troops to win and the FOC says we have to have at least 2.

These fit into different types as well. Broadly speaking 3 types exist.

1) Sit on an objective and refuse to die

2) Take objective and then try not to die.

3) Actually do stuff as well as sit on an objective and refu....

Okay they're a little more difficult to categorise but we'll give it a go.

Sit on an objective and refuse to die.

The requirements for this role include but are not limited to,

1) High toughness

2) Good armour save

3) Weight of numbers

The best example of this is the Plaguebearer in the Daemon Codex. It's useless in a fight,moves slow and can't hurt vehicles but it's great at not dying. T5, 5+ Inv. and Feel no Pain combine to make a unit that at a trivial 75 points for a minimum unit of 5 will sit in cover and annoy the fuck out of you if you can't spare a dedicated assault unit to go in there and shift it.

Another example of this kind of unit are Space Marine scouts that with Camo Cloaks combined with a bolstered building gives them a 2+ Cover Save. Though different in use to the above mentioned Plaguebearer unit they serve the same purpose which is obviously 'hold an objective and bloody well stay there'.

A unit that does this job but in a completely different way are Gretchin from the Ork Codex. For 100 points you can get 30 bodies (you can have less, obviously) that can sit in terrain and go to ground for a 3+ cover save that will take forever to shift with ranged weaponry.

Then there's the Tyranid Tervigon. A 6 wound, T6 MC with a 3+ save that can spawn other scoring units around itself for free while simultaneously making them better.

All perform their role well but in slightly different ways and they (or something like them) are imo essential for any competitive army. Always remember however that if their job is to just sit there then avoid giving them unnecessary 'just in case' equipment if those points could be better spent elsewhere ;-)

2) Take objective and then try not to die.

Okay I have to give them a mention...Khorne Berzerkers. A unit of charging Khorne Berzerkers will punch a whole through 95% of units that are foolish enough to be out of a vehicle anywhere near an objective...which they then defend with...Bolt Pistols...So am I saying they're good?

Not really, but they are a good example of an objective taking unit rather than an objective keeping unit.

Of course one of the best units for this job is a standard (if there is such a thing) Marine. Decent stats across the board, Good armour, Frag and Krak Grenades and a wide variety of equipment options make them about the best choice for this role. Unfortunately not everyone has access to Marines now do they...

Swarm units approach this type of activity in the same way as they'd approach the 'not dying' one only they have to reach it first which necessitates large units or a sacrificial unit that gives a cover save to the unit behind it. Gretchin and Termagants amongst others might just reach an objective with enough numbers to still be able to switch back to the job of 'Not dying' by the same 'Go to ground, don't get assaulted' method they would have been using if they had been there all along.

3) Actually do stuff as well as sit on an objective and refu....

Be aware of what you want the unit to do and equip it accordingly. One of the biggest mistakes I see (and if I'm honest the one I used to make the most and probably sometimes still do) was loading a squad with enough equipment to open a shop when you had a specific purpose in mind for them but kept adding stuff 'just in case'.

As a brief rule of thumb, if dropping the upgrades is enough for another unit then you've probably overspent a bit, lol.

I think that'll do for now. I'll cover the other FOC slots tomorrow and do some sample units for specific purposes either then or the day after.

Thoughts, Comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Battlefleet Gothic.

The recent sort out of my hobby room seems to have indicated that at some point I intended to play Battlefleet Gothic.

I even painted one...Badly

Now I've decided that I want to build my Renegade Marine Chapters entire Fleet.

I seem to have a fairly good start and also a lot of misc. stuff I'm not sure will be of any use*

* I bought a bag of items for about a fiver at a model exhibition many years ago and some of it was amongst the bits I acquired.

Some Escorts which will come in handy and a few random transports that will be okay for 'fluff' purposes but not much use in actual games.

A pile of Strike Cruiser parts which turns out to be enough to make 4 complete ships.

A big chunk of it assembled (but unmounted on bases) looks like this.

All in all for my Marine Fleet I have 3 Battle Barges, 4 Strike Cruisers and a hand-full of escorts.

I also have a Light Imperial Cruiser, several 'Infidel' class Chaos raiders, a Despoiler (I think) class Battleship and a Planet Killer.

The 'pure' Marine list in the Armada book has a maximum of 3 Battle Barges, 10 Strike Cruisers and as many Escorts/Rapid Strike Vehicles as you feel like. However taking a 'pure' Marine force from the mixed list from the other section would let you take 4 Battle Barges and 12 Strike Cruisers plus escorts.

Do any of you Fluff Nazi's out there have any idea how big a complete Space Marine Chapter fleet would be?

Thoughts, Comments and links to background resources would be (as usual) most welcome.

Incoming Mail - Badab War List

E-Mail In :

As some ppl know i began a mantis warrior project back when the imperium was young due to my love of long hair and tattoos, this then branched out to a full 'evil' badab list, due to my night lords being incomplete till i can buy more forgeworld i picked them back up and would like to make them useable. this is what i have so far (p.s. feel free to use as a blog post)

(Lamenters secton)

Lamenters chapter master (forget his name) - 175

10 scouts + heavy bolter + camo cloaks (4 sniper, 4 bolter, bolt pistol + cc, heavy bolter) - 180

10 space marines + melta + missile launcher + power fist+ plasma pistol - 145

Rhino + extra armour - 65

(mantis warrior section)

6 sternguard + heavy flamer + power weapon - 175

razor back (free weapons) + extra armour - 70

(Astral claws)

6 sternguard + heavy flamer - 160

razor back (free weapons) + extra armour - 70

total= 1215

so far its all made from bitz (to a good standard :p) would like suggestions of ways to improve/ add to for 1500, 1750 and poss 2000

Reply :

Well first a few issues.

1) Scouts. Scouts are only really of use in a BA list to hang around Devastators as a scoring unit to sit on objectives.

2) Tactical Squad. If it's all sitting together at the back it only needs the long range weapon, If It's moving forward then the heavy weapon is wasted and if it's splitting up then the half moving forward is fulfilling a roll better done by Assault Marines while the half at the back is fulfilling a role better done by Devastators.

3) Sternguard. These are fine though I'd tool up a few with Combi-Meltas as your anti-tank is currently a single Missile Launcher...

4) Vehicles. Extra Armour is only useful on a Land Raider that absolutely has to make it to the enemy to unload it's cargo or on something that gets it for free (or possibly on a Chaos Dreadnought equipped solely with Close Combat weapons) everything else can do without it. Extra vehicles > extra armour on vehicles ;-)

Also Razorbacks with Heavy Bolters are not very useful. If your fisting your opponent in the throat with it you might as well take a weapon that works up close (like the Heavy Flamers which are also free) or just bite the bullet and pay the 35 points for either an Assault Cannon or Las/Plas Turret.

5) Though not as mandatory as BA players seem to think, a Sanguinary Priest (or 2) would nicely compliment the assault elements of the army as I think you would like to run it or could hang back with the Devastators and Scouts making them annoying to remove without getting up close. To this end your Scouts would need to be either Snipers or Close Combat or possibly a 50/50 mixture of the 2.

The following list I think is much better and keeps a fair amount of the units you originally wanted while making the overall army much more competitive without losing it's 'soul'. I've done it for 1750 as anything below that makes me sad...

That Tactical Squad isn't going to help us much though...

1750 Pts - Badab War Combined Assault Force - 1750

HQ: Malakim Phoros (IA) (1#, 175 pts)

1 Malakim Phoros (IA) @ 175 pts

Elite: Sanguinary Priest (1#, 65 pts)

1 Sanguinary Priest @ 65 pts (Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour)

1 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour (Lightning Claw)

Elite: Sternguard Veteran Squad (6#, 205 pts)

4 Sternguard Veteran Squad @ 205 pts (Combi-Meltagun x3; Heavy Flamer x1; Razorback)

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)

1 Razorback (Twin Linked Heavy Flamer)

Elite: Sternguard Veteran Squad (6#, 205 pts)

4 Sternguard Veteran Squad @ 205 pts (Combi-Meltagun x3; Heavy Flamer x1; Razorback)

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)

1 Razorback (Twin Linked Heavy Flamer)

Troops: Scout Squad (10#, 180 pts)

1 Scout Squad @ 180 pts (Camo Cloaks; Scout)

9 Scout (Camo Cloaks; Sniper Rifle x8; Missile Launcher)

1 Sergeant (Camo Cloaks; Bolt Pistol; Sniper Rifle)

Troops: Assault Squad (6#, 175 pts)

3 Assault Squad @ 175 pts (Remove Jump Packs; Meltagun; Razorback)

1 Assault Marine with Meltagun (Remove Jump Packs)

1 Sergeant (Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Hand Flamer x1)

1 Razorback (Twin Linked Assault Cannon)

Troops: Assault Squad (6#, 175 pts)

3 Assault Squad @ 175 pts (Remove Jump Packs; Meltagun; Razorback)

1 Assault Marine with Meltagun (Remove Jump Packs)

1 Sergeant (Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Hand Flamer x1)

1 Razorback (Twin Linked Assault Cannon)

Troops: Assault Squad (6#, 175 pts)

3 Assault Squad @ 175 pts (Remove Jump Packs; Meltagun; Razorback)

1 Assault Marine with Meltagun (Remove Jump Packs)

1 Sergeant (Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Hand Flamer x1)

1 Razorback (Twin Linked Assault Cannon)

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (5#, 130 pts)

4 Devastator Squad @ 130 pts (Missile Launcher x4)

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (5#, 130 pts)

4 Devastator Squad @ 130 pts (Missile Launcher x4)

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (5#, 130 pts)

4 Devastator Squad @ 130 pts (Missile Launcher x4)

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)

Total Roster Cost: 1745

That's much better imo.

Plenty of light to medium anti-tank, excellent objective holding potential and a couple of units that can 'suicide' melta if you really need to stop something in it's tracks.

The Priest dishes out Feel no Pain to the Devastators and Scouts, with Furious Charge available should you need the Scouts to leap to the aid of the Dev's or he can jump in a Razorback and help out the forward elements as necessary. The Lightning Claw is a habit that I've got into because all of mine have them which you can ignore in favour of something else if you prefer.

Editors Note : You can drop the Lightning Claw and the Assault Squad Sergeants Hand Flamers and combined with the 5 points I didn't use add a 2nd un-upgraded Priest if you really want another one.

It's also not particularly kill point heavy at 16 and has 4-5 objective holding units.

Thoughts, Comments and essays on why I should have left the Tactical Squad in are (as usual) most welcome.

Forge World Newsletter #255

	Hi There, This week’s Newsletter brings you a fresh wave of Space Marine kits to pre-order, along with two more A4 Transfer Sheets packed with vehicle and infantry decals and a reminder of our Christmas shipping deadlines and opening times. Thanks, Ead Brown Land Raider Achilles Available to Pre-Order Now The first of our new wave of Space Marine releases is the devastatingly powerful Land Raider Achilles. This resin and plastic hybrid kit, designed by Stuart Williamson, boasts sponson-mounted twin Multi-Meltas and a hull-mounted Thunderfire Cannon. A line-breaker beyond compare, the Land Raider Achilles’ firepower is capable of forcing a breach in even the strongest defences at the tip of an armoured assault. Originating in the closing years of the Great Crusade, the Achilles is perhaps the rarest and most venerable Land Raider variant still used on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium. It was originally created by the Imperial Fists Legion in response to a dire xenos threat now lost to the mists of history, and fittingly rare outside the noble Imperial Fists, their successors and the Ordo Reductor of the Adeptus Mechanus. The Achilles is perhaps most vaunted for its legendary durability - each stage of the hull’s construction incorporates layer upon layer of ancient electromagnetic algorithms and ferromantic incantations. This arcane lore is etched into the very structure of the Land Raider Achilles at a molecular level, and is one the most secret and ancient rites of the Cult Mechanicus. The Land Raider Achilles is a complete resin and plastic kit, and is available to pre-order now for despatch in the week commencing December 6th, and is included in the Space Marine Siege Assault Vanguard army list in the forthcoming Imperial Armour Volume 10: The Badab War Part II. As an exclusive extra, we have prised the rules for the Achilles from Alan Bligh’s grasp and they are available to download for free here. Forge World MkIV Ironclad Dreadnought and Arms Available to Pre-Order Now The latest addition to our range of MkIV Dreadnoughts is the siege specialist MkIV Ironclad Dreadnought, MkIV Hurricane Bolter, MkIV Seismic Hammer and MkIV Chainfist. These full resin kits, designed by Phil Stutcinskas, afford Space Marine players the complete range of Codex options for the Ironclad Dreadnought. Heavily augmented and outfitted for siege assault and ship boarding actions, the Ironclad Dreadnought sacrifices versatility and long-range firepower for even greater armoured defence and dedicated siege weaponry such as the Seismic Hammer and Chainfist, designed to pulverise the toughest bastion or armoured bulkhead into twisted wreckage. The fearsome short-ranged firepower of a Hurricane Bolter is often used to augment the Ironclad’s firepower, allowing the ancient hero within the sarcophagus to saturate breached defences with a deadly storm of bolter shells. The MkIV Ironclad Dreadnought is a full resin kit that comes complete with Hunter Killer Missiles and Frag Assault Launchers, furthering the Ironclad’s potent weaponry, as well as additional armour plates to fit the resin MkIV Hurricane Bolter, MkIV Seismic Hammer and MkIV Chainfist and our other MkIV Dreadnought arms. Each of these detailed kits is available to pre-order now for despatch in the week commencing December 6th. New Space Marine Transfer Sheets Available to Pre-Order Now Forge World’s Paul Rudge has been hard at work of late, busily working away on two additions to our range of transfer sheets – an A4 Dark Angels transfer sheet and an A4Space Marine Markings decal sheet. Each sheet is crammed with a huge array of squad badges suitable for shoulder pads, jump packs and vehicles. There are also unit designations and unique details such as Dark Angel maxims and names, along with standard and variant vehicle designations for all types of Space Marine squad insignia. Each of the new transfer sheets is also available to pre-order now for despatch in the week commencing December 6th. Forge World Winter Catalogue Supplement Sheet Now Available You can now download a free PDF of our most recent supplement sheet from the Forge World website. It includes the Eldar Hornet, which is available to pre-order now for despatch from the 29th of November, along with all of our most recent releases such as the Necron Tomb Stalker and Space Marine Armour Sets. If you’d like to receive a free copy of our 2010 catalogue to assist you when compiling your Christmas shopping list, e-mail forgeworldcatreq@games-workshop.co.uk making sure you include your full name and postal address. Forge World Christmas Shipping With November upon us, we have news of our final shipping deadlines for Christmas. These dates are subject to change, and we will keep you informed of any changes both in future newsletters and at www.forgeworld.co.uk. As always, it’s best to order as early as possible to ensure that you’ll get exactly what you want and if you have any questions please don’t hesitate to contact us using the details below. Our last guaranteed shipping date for Standard Delivery outside the UK will be December 6th. Our last guaranteed shipping date for Express Delivery outside the UK will be December 15th. For our customers inside the UK, the last guaranteed shipping date for Standard Delivery will be December 15th and the last guaranteed shipping date for Express Delivery will be December 20th. If you have any questions or concerns about any aspect of your Forge World Christmas Shopping then please contact us either by e-mail at forgeworldorderenquiries@games-workshop.co.uk or by telephone on 0115 916 8177 within the UK, 011 44 115 916 8177 from the US and Canada or 00 44 115 916 8177 from much of Europe. Forge World’s Customer Service team is available 6 days a week all the way up to Christmas, so don’t hesitate to contact us to check stock availability and shipping times. We are also a font of knowledge and advice if you aren’t sure about what would make the perfect Forge World gift. Forge World Wishlists Now Available Online On the subject of Christmas shopping, there’s nothing worse than secretly hoping for a Reaver Titan, finding a massive parcel under your tree, eagerly ripping it open and finding a lovely ‘novelty’ jumper and a pair of socks… It doesn't get much worse than that, but thankfully it couldn't be easier to make sure that it doesn't happen to you. If you’ve created an account on www.forgeworld.co.uk then you have the ability to create a Wishlist. Just login to Your Account and you’ll see an option to View Wishlists – simply browse through our online store and click the ‘add to wishlist’ button on each item’s page. Once you’ve found all the gifts you’re after, just e-mail it to all of your friends and family and wait for Christmas morning. 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The Return of a Classic.

In the beginning there was a man named Stelek and one day he had a bright idea...he called it 'Best-of'...This was the wonderful idea of taking the 'best' unit 'of' each FOC section and spamming as many of that unit as you could.

Here's a visual example of the concept for reference purposes,

This revolutionary concept was then adopted by many people, most of which claimed they'd been doing lists like that all along ;-)

The first list along these lines was either the following or a very close approximation...

1750 Pts - Space Marines Roster - Original 'Best Of' List.

HQ: Master of the Forge (1#, 120 pts)

1 Master of the Forge @ 120 pts (Conversion Beamer)

Troops: Scout Squad (6#, 163 pts)

5 Scout Squad @ 163 pts (Camo Cloaks; Sniper Rifle x3; Heavy Bolter w/Hellfire Shells; Sergeant Telion)

1 Sergeant Telion

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 105 pts)

1 Dreadnought @ 105 pts

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 105 pts)

1 Dreadnought @ 105 pts

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 105 pts)

1 Dreadnought @ 105 pts

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 205 pts)

9 Tactical Squad @ 205 pts (Flamer; Multi-Melta; Rhino)

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)

1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 205 pts)

9 Tactical Squad @ 205 pts (Flamer; Multi-Melta; Rhino)

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)

1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 205 pts)

9 Tactical Squad @ 205 pts (Flamer; Multi-Melta; Rhino)

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)

1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (2#, 140 pts)

2 Land Speeder Squadron @ 140 pts (Multi-Melta x2; Heavy Flamer x2)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (2#, 140 pts)

2 Land Speeder Squadron @ 140 pts (Multi-Melta x2; Heavy Flamer x2)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Total Roster Cost: 1748

Of course back then nobody was meched up so there was usually insufficient anti-vehicle fire-power in the opposing army to destroy all your vehicles before you destroyed all of his.

Telion's squad also had to pay for their own Camo-Cloaks rather than now (after the FAQ) where apparently Telion just yells at them till they hide better...

Sorry girls...try again...

Where was I? okay now I remember...

Is this list still viable today?

I think it is...though a few minor tweaks wouldn't hurt...

1750 Pts - Space Marines Roster - Original 'Best Of' List - Updated

HQ: Space Marine Librarian (1#, 100 pts)

1 Space Marine Librarian @ 100 pts (...in Power Armour; Null Zone; The Gate of Infinity)

1 ...in Power Armour

HQ: Master of the Forge (1#, 120 pts)

1 Master of the Forge @ 120 pts (Conversion Beamer)

Troops: Scout Squad (7#, 161 pts)

6 Scout Squad @ 161 pts (Sniper Rifle x3; Missile Launcher; Sergeant Telion)

1 Sergeant Telion

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 125 pts)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 125 pts)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 125 pts)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 175 pts)

4 Tactical Squad @ 175 pts (Razorback)

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Flamer x1)

1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 175 pts)

4 Tactical Squad @ 175 pts (Razorback)

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Flamer x1)

1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 175 pts)

4 Tactical Squad @ 175 pts (Razorback)

1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Flamer x1)

1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)

1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Multi-Melta x1; Heavy Flamer x1)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)

1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Multi-Melta x1; Heavy Flamer x1)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)

1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Multi-Melta x1; Heavy Flamer x1)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)

1 Predator @ 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Total Roster Cost: 1746

So we've added a Librarian for some psychic defense.

The world of 5th edition still has buildings that we can 'bolster' (+1 to Cover Save) so our Scout Squad gets a 2+ Save (Due Telion passing his Stealth rule onto the unit thanks to the 40K rulebook Ver 1.1 FAQ) so the Master of the Forge stays. He still has his Conversion Beamer which gives us impressive long range shots from the safety of his bolstered building with his ablative Scout Squad wounds with Telion helping out when necessary. He can also still repair a vehicle on a 5+ even without his Servo Harness and we have quite a few vehicles in this list ;-)

We swap our Melta bunker Rhino's for some Razorbacks and spread out our Speeders into 3 individual units as these have a smaller cross section than a pair which makes them better for deep-striking in. They can of course start on the board and rely on their 'Flat-Out' move to give them a cover save.

Our Dreadnoughts become 'Dakka' Dreads or 'Rifleman' Dreadnoughts depending on what internet forum you use for your buzzwords ;-)

Predators stay in their unchanged 'lots of shots for not many points' role.

Of course the original probably still works fairly well so maybe I should dig it out for nostalgia purposes...

Thoughts, Comments and new inventive nicknames for units are (as usual) most welcome.