Thunderhammer Vs. Lightning Claw.

I got involved in a debate.....It started with a simple question.....

Thunderhammer and Storm Shield,

or Pair of Lightning Claws?

It seemed obvious to me that the TH/SS combo was better in pretty much every way given it's greater utility and the extra defensive benefits of the Storm Shield but apparently my word isn't as definitive as I would like, lol.

So I've got my shovel out of the shed and unearthed our old friend Mathshammer to help with my argument.

First the important Stats...

The Terminators wielding our weapons are WS 4, I 4, S 4 and have 2 attacks base, plus we'll assume a 5 'man' unit.

Our Weapons are therefore either S4 Power weapons with a re-roll to wound striking at initiative (Lightning Claws) or S8 Power Weapons striking at Initiative 1 with a stunning effect thrown in for good measure (Thunderhammers).

We'll start off going after a generic Marine Squad (10 man) as they're a nice 'average' encounter for most players and we'll give their Sergeant a Power weapon just to even things out a little ;-

We'll also round our dead to the nearest whole number.

We'll let the Lightning Claw Terminators have first attempt.

5x Terminators with Lightning Claws Vs. 10 Tactical Marines.

Terminators charging

Terminators get 20 attacks, 10 hit, 5 wound + 2.5 more from re-rolls.

So 8 dead Marines.

But as we're the same initiative the Marines might take a terminator or 2 with them...

9 attacks, 4.5 hit, 2.25 wound, 0.375 dead Terminators after 2+ Saves.

3 Power Weapon attacks, 1.5 Hit, 0.75 wound, 0.5 dead Terminators after 5+ inv. saves.

So 1 dead Terminators.

A solid win for the LC Terminators with the Marines needing 'Snake Eyes' to pass their Leadership.

Lets try that again with the Marines getting the charge.

Tactical Marines Charging.

Terminators get 15 attacks, 7.5 hit, 3.75 wound + 1.875 more from rerolls.

So 6 dead Marines rounding up.

But we're still the same initiative so the Marines might yet again take a Terminator with them...

18 attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 0.75 dead Terminators after 2+ Saves.

4 Power Weapon attacks, 2 Hit, 1 wound, 0.67 dead Terminators after 5+ inv. saves.

So 1.42 dead Terminators. Rounding down that's just the one, however it's close enough to Rounding up to 2 and that's worth remembering...

Still a victory for the Terminators but a somewhat less conclusive one.

Let's try that same scenario with Thunderhammer Terminators...

5x Terminators with Thunderhammers Vs. 10 Tactical Marines.

Terminators charging

Marines get to strike first this time.

9 attacks, 4.5 hit, 2.25 wound, 0.375 dead Terminators after 2+ Saves.

3 Power Weapon attacks, 1.5 Hit, 0.75 wound, 0.25 dead Terminators after 3+ inv. saves.

Rounding up that kills a Terminator so we'll only be attacking with the 4. However before you get too hopeful remember that in an actual game using whole numbers that could easily be none...

Terminators get 12 Attacks, 6 Hit, 5 wound and kill.

Terminators win by 4 meaning on an average Leadership roll those Marines will be running away.

Tactical Marines charging

Marines get to strike first this time.

18 attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 0.75 dead Terminators after 2+ Saves.

4 Power Weapon attacks, 2 Hit, 1 wound, 0.33 dead Terminators after 3+ inv. saves.

Rounding up that kills a Terminator so we'll only be attacking with the 4. This time it was a whole Terminator at least rather than a fraction of one like last time, lol.

Terminators get 8 Attacks, 4 Hit, 3.33 wound and kill.

Terminators win by 2 or 3 meaning on an average Leadership roll could still send those Marines running away.

Preliminary Conclusions.

So the Lightning Claw guys did slightly better against normal Marines than the TH/SS variety. However, in the world of 5th. Edition those Marines were most likely in a transport of some kind...

The best they can really hope for is an immobilisation of that vehicle, Lets see how that goes shall we,

Lightning Claw Terminators Vs. Vehicle (Armour 10).

Stationary vehicle.

20 attacks, Auto-hit, 3.33 Glancing hits, 0.55 chance of immobilisation.

Vehicle moved up to 6".

20 attacks, 10 hit, 1.67 Glancing hits, 0.27 chance of immobilisation.

Vehicle moved over 6".

20 attacks, 3.33 hit, 0.56 Glancing hits, 0.093 chance of immobilisation.

Well they sucked at that didn't they?

Thunder Hammer Terminators Vs. Vehicle (Armour 10).

Stationary vehicle.

15 attacks, Auto-hit, 10 Penetrating hits, 3.33 chance of wrecked or exploded.

Vehicle moved up to 6".

15 attacks, 7.5 hit, 5 Penetrating hits, 1.67 chance of wrecked or exploded.

Vehicle moved over 6".

15 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.67 Penetrating hits, 0.56 chance of wrecked or exploded.

That was much better.

More conclusions.

The Lightning Claw Terminators were quite frankly useless against a vehicle and wouldn't have been able to hurt one with rear armour 11 at all. The Thunderhammers did a much better job, even having a good chance of destroying a vehicle that had moved flat out. Had this been a mixed unit then the odds would have dropped substantially for each Terminator that had Lightning Claws instead of Thunderhammers which is why I'm personally not in favour of mixed units.

Of course not everybody has Vehicles...Some have fucking great T6, 6 wound Monstrous Creatures instead...

We'll use a Tervigon in this example as they're fairly common in competitive Tyranid Lists,

Lightning Claw Terminators Vs. T6 MC's

Terminators Charging

20 attacks, 13.33 hit, 2.22 wound + 1.11 with re-rolls.

so 3 wounds caused.

Tervigon gets 3 Attacks, 1.5 Hit, 1 Wound, 0.67 dead terminators.

Terminators Charged

15 attacks, 10 hit, 1.67 wound + 0.84 with re-rolls.

so 2.51 wounds caused.

Tervigon gets 4 Attacks, 2 Hit, 1.33 Wound, 0.87 dead Terminators.

Thunderhammer Terminators Vs. T6 MC's

Terminators Charging

15 attacks, 10 hit, 8.33 wound.

Tervigon Dead.

Terminators Charged

12 attacks, 8 hit, 6.66 wound.

Tervigon Dead.

An actual conclusion.

In any normal 40K playing environment your going to face off against a large variety of different units and you need to be able to take on any of them. Thunderhammers scare everything, Lightning Claws scare some things and anything that's shooting at you with the kind of things that kill Terminators won't be that bothered about that 5+ invulnerable save anywhere near as much as they will a 3+ invulnerable save...

Thoughts, Comments and 'but they look like Wolverine and he's cool' counter arguments are (as usual) most welcome.