I'm pretty good at 40K, If I play anybody other than probably 3 or 4 particular guys at my FLGS then I'll win. Against those guys it comes down to list optimisation (occasionally) or luck (mostly).
Fortunately I'm a nice guy so I still get games...
Which I usually win...
And usually learn Fuck all.
Once upon a time.
I was initially taught the basics of 40K by the Manager of a Games Workshop shop. Unfortunately It wasn't particularly big so getting games on the nights I wanted became next to impossible. However there was another shop (which ironically turned out to be closer to my home) that had a much larger gaming room and fairly flexible finishing times.
It was in this shop that I was introduced to a gentlemen named Dave who was a Space Wolves player and happened to be without an opponent that night. So I unpacked my Chaos army and off we went...3 turns later I packed my defeated army back in my case, said thanks and went home and to be honest sulked a bit, lol.
So next games night I had another go against Dave...this time I made it to turn 4...However this time Dave explained to me exactly what I did wrong and why the army I was using sucked. Well, not sucked exactly but needed certain things adding and could do without others.
This went on for a while and resulted in several embarrassing or hilarious (depending on what side of the table you were standing on) incidents, several of which have become local legends (The near legendary Vindicator incident being one of them). But I get better and better, till eventually I won.
The yell of triumph could be heard several miles away*
* This is somewhat unsporting and should not be done during casual play by the way ;-)
Feeling fairly confident that I could now hold my own I started to play against different people. And won, a lot actually...It turns out that the desire to avoid making the same mistake twice had made me into quite a good player.
The present day.
As anybody who has been paying attention knows I've recently started a Tyranid army which has nothing In common with the Marine variants I'm used to whatsoever.
So I'm back to square one, I'm going to fuck up, I'm going to lose some (probably lots) of games and I'm going to have to re-include the phrase 'so what did I learn from that game' into my vocabulary.
Not a problem, right?
Well I'd like to think so, but I have unfortunately got used to winning so the alternative may take some getting used to.
So I have 2 questions...
1) Is losing a better teaching aid than winning?
I personally think it is, I'd just rather win.
2) Is throwing your new army against the most optimised list used by the best player you can find the best way of testing it out?
That one I'm not so sure about....
Thoughts anyone?
1)Yes. No question. I like to win, a LOT. But it's very much a fleeting feeling. Learning > Winning, and Winning =/= Learning, most of the time. Most of the 'learning' you get from wins are bad habits. Oooh. Article idea. Thanks GMort!
ReplyDelete2) Hrmmm. Tricky. Is it a BAD way, no. Best though? I think the BEST way, technically, has to be against a variety of optimised lists run by the same calibre of opponent, ideally one better than you, but your equal would do.
HOWEVER, you will learn more playing again and again against the same list, about your army. As long as you learn more about yourself than you learn to beat their list, or that player. It's not something that can be taught.
Agree with TKE.
ReplyDeleteAnother important bit is to change your list as little as possible, if at all, between games. Keeping things the same makes learning easier, since you focus on only a handful of variable at a time.
1) Yes. You do, however, need to disassociate the objective of the game ('win') from the actual reason you're playing the game ('learn, have fun'). It's simply stated, but much harder to actually do, especially if your losses tend to be very much not fun.
ReplyDeleteIt's very hard to have fun or identify things to learn from getting tabled at the bottom of turn three, and you probably won't be in the mood to ask the person who just drubbed you how you could have beaten them (and that's assuming they're a nice sort who'll actually tell you, which... often, people aren't). If you're like me, and have a Thing about advice that you didn't ask for, you'll probably need some breathing room after the defeat so that you can cool off and approach it impersonally.
I think the most useful thing you can have is an opponent who's on that wavelength - one that you can actually say "I need some breathing room before I can discuss this with you" to and know that they'll respect you for being that throughtful, rather than the, umm, underdeveloped personalities who are too busy waggling their nerd-wangs in your face because they totally pw0nz0rzd ur n00b a$$.
For 2), it also helps if your hypothetical gentleman opponent is better than you at the fundamentals of the game (and so can identify things you could do even if they don't play your army) and has some different tricks up their sleeve (be those different builds or different uses of builds) so that you learn to win games, not defeat the same one-trick pony.
Chumby's right about not changing lists, too. Stick a list out for at least half a dozen games before you change anything. One game is not long enough to build either yourself or a list up to anything like competence.
Gareth, since i am one of the 3 or 4, do you want a game on sunday?
ReplyDeleteThanks for the input everyone, all very good points.
ReplyDelete@ Mike - Sunday should be fine, I may need to proxy a few things however. What army are you using currently, still Blood Angels?
Hmmm.
ReplyDeleteI've found the best way to learn and win is to play against a friend who is good at the game, and has a good list (this part especially). It's preferable most times that you're better at the game than he is, but if they catch you every once in awhile that's very good.
Playing them more often than not will let you test new situations with your armylist. They will hopefully catch your mistakes, and you can be given a chance to try to get yourself out of the hole you dug. They get practice, you get practice, and you get to understand your list better.
Playing against somebody too good for you to beat (hopefully not because of their list) is bad, because they will seemingly outmaneuver you, trap you, and crush you over and over again. Games like that are not learning if you're not a new player at the game. All it is, is you being disappointed by another crushing defeat over and over again.
Get a close friend or two. Build a list up together you both/all feel stands at least a chance vs good lists then play it against a couple of tried and tested tier two lists with those same friends, discussing why you make each choice. You sacrifice the ability to surprise shock your opponent but you both gain from learning about the choices and results, which is the point right? Hell even stop games and do things like 'I think this is a risk but lets see what would have happened if we tried it' and just roll it out before continuing the game. Then SWAP LISTS and play the same game again, preferably twice.
ReplyDeleteIts a really odd change if your used to tight lipped competative play but its the fastest way I've found to help you and your gaming group up your list power levels and play. Point out bad plays right from deployment/reserves/ seize rolls before someone makes them and explain why, right through to discussing is it the right time for a last turn objective grab. You know roughly how good your friends gaming level is so you know when to take their advice. If its a few close friends your safe knowing your not leaking all your secrets to potential competitors at your next tourney.
To playtest an army at first play playtest games. Then when your comfortable with the list and playing, go try it out with the local power gamers. Even with a solid list, if you don't know how the units play together your setting yourself up for a painful loss, which if you don't like loosing probably isn't the way to go for it! Grab a few friends and give it a try!
@ Crosser Modelling - All good advice, thanks for your input.
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