Dark Legion - Undead Horde - Part 2

In a recent post I mentioned that I was planning an undead horde for my Dark Legion...

...the response was...mixed...

Necromutants!!!...No, Legionnaires!!!...Necromutants!!!...No, Legionnaires!!!...

My plan was to have a large number of cheap units throwing as much fire-power as possible out using an old philosophy of mine from back when list building for 40K was actually fun whereby if you throw enough shots into an enemy unit it's going to die...eventually...with this supported by a bit more quality fire-power with which to pick off threats that need immediate attention..

I believe the actual quote goes "Quantity has a quality all of it's own.." Though the quote originally came from Joseph Stalin I don't think we can hold that against the quote. He also said "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." Which is probably on a plaque over Algeroth's office door.....

In my second of my battle reports (which can be found here) I used exactly such a list as mentioned and it did rather well. I also discovered that I was slightly under-pointed...

The revised list is going to go something like the following...we'll look at the reasons as we go along...

Warlord - Golgotha   (175 Points)

Golgotha has several abilities that are exceptionally useful in this build type.

Her Passive Ability 'Aura of Dark Symmetry' gives friendly models starting their activation within 12" of her a +1 to their Movement Value which combined with the +1 from their Necromutant Squad Commander ups a Undead Legionnaires Movement from four to six which given their inability to run is a significant improvement. In addition to this benefit she has another Passive Ability called 'Repugnant Actuality' which gives all friendly models on small or medium bases within 12" of Golgotha a +1 bonus to Armour which ups our Legionnaires from 12 to 13 and our Razides to 15 from 14 which is also helpful.

Her third Passive Ability is 'Dark Symmetry' which enables her to take up to one Algeroth Dark Symmetry Power. Given her role (in my force at least) as a support Warlord I'd most likely give her Bringer of Dark Tools, Transmorphication or Infernal Shield which give the target unit bonuses to weapon strength, armour or Willpower respectively. All of those are 15 points though Transmorphication is currently the one I'm edging towards as it potentially gives me Armour 17 on a unit of Razides.

She's adequate in a fight though she rely's on quantity of attacks rather than quality combined with a de-buff from 'Mistress of Pain' and to be fair if she's in combat then something's going wrong..or some sneaky individual's used Rapid Deployment to ambush me, lol.

Troops - Undead Legionnaires (172 Points)

Now I've found a few extra points I'll be using maximum sized units of these numbering twelve Legionnaires (one of which will be upgraded to a Necromutant Squad Commander) with the maximum possible upgraded to have special weapons. My personal preference is for four HMG's in each squad and though I can see the usefulness in certain situations of the Plaguedealer I'm sticking with the HMG's for now.

A full unit gives me 12, 18" range St 13 shots and 7, 24" range shots at St 12 with a RS of 12 with a further 2, 24" range St 13 shots at RS 13. Effectively what this means is I get a lot of very average shots at mid-range and hopefully enough get through so my target fails an armour save or two. I can 'Turn to Burn' a Resource card to give the unit 'Black Bullets' which stop the target from making 'Heal' rolls...very useful against forces with medics or if you just don't want that small chance of enemy survival to ruin all your hard work.

In melee they're also distinctly average...except...

Mutant Chronicles is in many ways less about unit selection (nothings terrible) but rather in the correct use of the units you have. When used appropriately Undead Legionnaires aren't actually that bad in a scrap. Their weapons prevent the use of healing effects, if they have a Necromutant Leader they have access to the 'Swarm'* Special Squad Action and it's also possible to turn certain models you kill into additional Undead Legionnaires in certain circumstances (It only works on Small or Medium Based models and they have to be removed by the Necromutant Squad Leader) but a free model is a free model, lol.

I used 'Swarm' several times in my last battle and it's an excellent way of removing high value single models.

As is to be expected in a 'Horde' list, I'll be taking four units of these.

Support - Razides (75 Points each)

I can now afford four of these rather than three though whether I'll take one as a unit on it's own or split them into two units of two or some other configuration will require some thought...

In my first game I left them in their normal configuration with the 3 shot 18" Range gun (the Plaguedealer HMG) and in my second I swapped them for the 2 shot, 30" version (the Nazgaroth) as they were going to stay at the back as a bodyguard for Golgotha. Next game I'm going to try a mix of both to give me some varying threat ranges. My current thinking is that I'll have a unit of two protecting Golgotha with the Nazgaroth upgrade and I'll take two in single model units that will move forward giving more close range support.

Razides are the 'Quality' part of the equation in this list. Their shots ignore any negative modifiers to range and any claims for cover, have a decent RS of 13 (once in position they'll be aiming rather than moving so their RS will effectively be 15 and the St of the attack will become 17...for the first shot at least) and also have some options in Close Combat situations which improve if you don't mind using a Resource Card.

Monster - Praetorian Behemoth (320 Points)

I like it and it's cool.....but I suppose that doesn't really count as a tactical analysis.....

Having used up my troop choices I'm left with a couple of Lord slots, my remaining Support slots without Razides in them and one Light Vehicle/Monster slot. I have no need of Lords particularly and I'm not sure that Praetorian Stalkers particularly compliment the list. What it really lacks is a heavily armoured bullet magnet as well as an immediate 'I need to deal with that now' threat that I can use to force my opponent to commit resources where I wish him to rather than where he (or she) wants to...this role is tailor made for the Behemoth...

He has a powerful ranged attack which has a Blast option as well as grenades that reduce an enemies armour and neutralise their 'Heal' Ability. It's close combat attacks are incredibly powerful and it has little trouble in tearing apart vehicles or multiple Wound models. If you don't mind spending a Resource Card you can do my personal favourite 'Throw building at unit' attack and it's 'Unstoppable Mass' attack allows it to make a Special 'Charge' Action that travels 12", Auto-hitting everything in it's path and hurling any survivors away.

Of course invariably it will be prevented from doing this a 2nd time as your opponent generally moves it up the priority list pretty much immediately afterwards, lol.

This makes the list for my next game the following...

Dark Legion - Undead Horde

Golgotha (175), Transmorphication (15)   (190)

Undead Legionnaires x12 (120), Necromutant Squad Commander (+20), HMG x4 (+32)   (172)
Undead Legionnaires x12 (120), Necromutant Squad Commander (+20), HMG x4 (+32)   (172)
Undead Legionnaires x12 (120), Necromutant Squad Commander (+20), HMG x4 (+32)   (172)
Undead Legionnaires x12 (120), Necromutant Squad Commander (+20), HMG x4 (+32)   (172)

Razides x2   (150), Nazgaroth Upgrade (+0)   (150)
Razides x1   (75)
Razides x1   (75)

Praetorian Behemoth (320)

Total   (1498)

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Damocles Gulf Campaign at Titan Games.

My FLGS (Titan Games) is running a narrative 40K campaign set in the Damocles Gulf...

We'll be fighting over a number of planets in the system. There's also a partially revised allies chart, which makes sense as the rulebook one is frankly preposterous. It's going to be starting at 1000 points games and then moving onto higher points values over the coming weeks. Though my interest in 40K has waned considerably I think I can probably deal with it at the lower points values. The lists require back stories and certain of the 'cheesier' lists have been vetoed which should make the games as fair as possible. I pointed out at the beginning that it was possible to create 'Broken' armies that were technically still 'Fluffy' using certain armies (Necrons, Grey Knights, etc.) but I'm assured that a giant hammer of banning exists in order to prevent this from happening...

"Where's that Necron player then???"

I know I have always spoken out against 'comp' in 40K but this is effectively a story played out over a period of months and is to all intents and purposes a GM'd RPG using 40K armies, lol. Which is (unfortunately) the only way you can actually play 6th Edition 40K currently (imo at least) so Games Workshop can call that a victory as I now play for 'fun'...of course I don't buy new stuff for 'fun' games so maybe that's not a victory after all ;-)

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The Dauntless Class Light Cruiser 'Darkspear' and it's pair of Escorts entered the system via an almost unknown route far from the most highly populated and patrolled areas of the Damocles Gulf. Heavily modified to suit the needs of the Night Reapers Chapter after their 'acquisition' in previous campaigns it bared little resemblance internally to the vessel it once was. Launch bays for the strike forces Thunderhawks had been added as well as several drop pod bays together with the training rooms and armouries required by a Space Marine force to maintain it's fighting edge.

The Night Reapers Chapter had received word through their network of spies and agents that a surprising number of different forces were already either in the system or were on route. Several other Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard units were defending the interests of the Imperium, while Chaos forces had also been detected, the Tau were obviously there and hive ships of one of the larger hive fleets were already seeding the outer worlds...with such a variety of interested parties in system it would be a prime opportunity for the acquiring of tactical information and resources. Their mission, though unusual for most Chapters was standard operating procedure for the Night Reapers. Namely, see if there's any benefit to us in getting involved, take anything of use and then get out before any-one can retaliate...they'd been operating in such a manner since their creation at the 2nd Founding and they'd become very proficient at it....

The Librarian in command viewed the initial landing force for their initial recon of the landing site. Three Combat Squads led by more experienced Marines mounted in Transport vehicles would scout the area while a pair of units armed with heavy weaponry would secure the landing site. These heavier units had transports of their own should they need to rapidly withdraw for any reason. The rest of the force would be held in reserve should there be anything substantial worth acquiring in the system...

The chief tactical officer from the bridge entered the loading bay at a run.

"Sorry to interrupt your preparations sir...but there's a problem with the landing site you selected..."

"What, exactly is the problem?" stated the Librarian "The ground is ideal for a temporary base of operation, is within range of several viable targets and is tactically sound..."

"Yes, I know..." interrupted the tactical officer "The Tau seem to have had the same idea...there's already a small force setting up camp there..."

"How large a force?" asked the Librarian, while making a mental note to have the bridge officer executed at a convenient later date for interrupting him mid sentence "and be specif..."

"Some troops, a transport or two, some kind of flying scouting vessel..." The officers briefing was interrupted by a an explosion of flesh and brain matter as the bolt round that had just entered his brain via his forehead detonated messily inside...

"We'll just have to go and take it from them then, I suppose" said the Librarian with a sigh "and some-one tell the chief tactical officers second in command that he's just been promoted..."

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1000 Pts - Night Reapers 'Counts-As' Space Wolves - Take and Hold Configuration

HQ: Rune Priest in Power Armour (1#, 100 pts) (Warlord)
   1 Rune Priest in Power Armour @ 100 pts (Storm Caller; Tempest's Wrath or possibly Living Lightning)

Elite: Wolf Guard Pack (3#, 69 pts)
   1 Wolf Guard Pack @ 69 pts (Wolf Guard in Power Armour; Wolf Guard in Power Armour; Wolf Guard in Power Armour)
      1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)
      1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)
      1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (6#, 150 pts)
   5 Grey Hunters Pack @ 150 pts (Flamer; Razorback)
      1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (6#, 150 pts)
   5 Grey Hunters Pack @ 150 pts (Flamer; Razorback)
      1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (6#, 150 pts)
   5 Grey Hunters Pack @ 150 pts (Flamer; Razorback)
      1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (6#, 190 pts)
   4 Long Fangs Pack @ 190 pts (Missile Launcher x4; Razorback)
      1 Squad Leader (Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
      1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (6#, 190 pts)
   4 Long Fangs Pack @ 190 pts (Missile Launcher x4; Razorback)
      1 Squad Leader (Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
      1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Total Roster Cost: 999

This army gives me a mix of everything I need so I can stand a chance against most things. I have plenty of Plasma to deal with the inevitable Dark Angel and Grey Knight Terminators, Flamers and Bolters to deal with light infantry and a few (always useful) multi purpose Missile Launchers. I've included a few Melta weapons so I have a vague chance of killing a heavy vehicle if I absolutely have to.

Given the ease with which light vehicles can now be torrented to death I don't think the number of Razorbacks is a balance issue for any opponent I might have. A large horde or any army with more than a couple of heavily armoured vehicles will probably kick my ass but it's difficult to build a balanced force at 1750 or 2000 points let alone at 1000...

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Going back to 40K - Part 3 (b) - Rock, Paper, Scissors

With the foot list generating no comments whatsoever I can only presume that it's awesomeness was such that you were all rendered speechless...or that you thought it was shit. I'm not sure if the following list fits into a 'Rock Paper Scissors' category. It does however only do one thing...it shoots at you...

Apparently the American version of Rock, Paper, Scissors is played differently...

Blood Angels - 1750

1 Librarian in Power Armour, 100 pts (Shield of Sanguinius; Some Other Power..probably The Sanguine Sword)

3 Assault Squad, 170 pts (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun [BA] (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

3 Assault Squad, 170 pts (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun [BA] (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

3 Assault Squad, 170 pts (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun [BA] (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

3 Assault Squad, 170 pts (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun [BA] (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

3 Assault Squad, 170 pts (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun [BA] (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

3 Assault Squad, 170 pts (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun [BA] (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

1 Land Speeder Squadron, 70 pts (Multi-melta x1; Heavy Flamer x1)

1 Land Speeder Squadron, 80 pts (Multi-melta x1; Multi-melta x1)

1 Land Speeder Squadron, 80 pts (Multi-melta x1; Multi-melta x1)

1 Stormraven Gunship, 200 pts (4x Bloodstrike Missiles)

1 Stormraven Gunship, 200 pts (4x Bloodstrike Missiles)

Total Roster Cost: 1750

At 2000 points I'll add a Sternguard unit with some Plasma weapons and a Las/Plas Razorback.

I can do this without buying anything else as I apparently own two Stormraven Gunships still in the boxes and  I also have a pair of unassembled Land Speeders that I can assemble into the 'two Multi-melta' configuration.

It's 'sort of' balanced but we all know that combat squads of Marines don't survive for very long in the world of 6th edition...Razorbacks still work just fine though...differently...but still fine ;-)

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Build Request - Chaos Terminators

Never let it be said that I'm unwilling to help those in need...as long as they need something easy that I would probably have done myself anyway at some point. This post comes due to an in-depth conversation about the nature of the Chaos Codex, how it interacts with other codices and the relative benefits of Terminator Squads...

...okay...that's a complete lie...it actually went like this...

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Adam at our FLGS - "Build me a list with thirty or so Chaos Terminators in it!!!"

Me - "Okay then..."

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...and then we went on a quest to destroy evil robots that were about to weaken humanity before their alien masters enslaved us with their insidious mind control powers....okay maybe that didn't happen either... 

First we'll get the HQ out of the way.

1 Sorcerer, 60 pts (Bolt Pistol; Force Sword; Warlord)

Well that bit was easy...onto the Terminators...

I have a few Terminators myself come to think of it...

We'll take squads of ten so that's 312 points a unit just for the guys and we'll need at least one Chainfist at an additional 12 points making 324. As 6th Edition Power weapons are basically 'as the model is equipped' I'd divide the weapons between Power Axes and Power Mauls. The ratio will depend on what you have available I suppose but personally I'd just go with four of one (Mauls) and five of the other (Axes). Opinion generally differs wildly on what's optimal equipment for units but I'm of the 'keep it cheap' school of design. I've optimised lists for people in the past and have ended up buying one, two or sometimes three or more units with the points I've saved by removing pointless unit add-ons ;-)

9 Chaos Terminators, 324 pts (Power Axe x4; Power Maul x4; Chainfist x1)

1 Terminator Champion (Combi-Boltgun; Power Axe)

9 Chaos Terminators, 324 pts (Power Axe x4; Power Maul x4; Chainfist x1)

1 Terminator Champion (Combi-Boltgun; Power Sword)

9 Chaos Terminators, 324 pts (Power Axe x4; Power Maul x4; Chainfist x1)

1 Terminator Champion (Combi-Boltgun; Power Sword)

We've now spent 972 points on Terminators and 60 on our HQ (Lol) bringing us to 1032 spent. We'll need some troops now and as we can use allies to get some cheap scoring units we'll just take the minimum two units of Chaos Cultists...

9 Chaos Cultists, 50 pts

1 Cultist Champion

9 Chaos Cultists, 50 pts

1 Cultist Champion

Bringing our Chaos contingent to 1132 points so far.

We are probably going to need to counter enemy fliers at some point and this is where the choices start.

If we're bringing in our primary scoring units from the Imperial Guard Codex (which we are) then we can take a Valk or Vendetta to supplement a couple of Heldrakes from the Primary Codex (Chaos Space Marines). The only real difference this makes is how many points you have to spend on Imperial Guardsmen as both Chaos and Imperial Guard Flyers are decent units.

At 2000 points I'd* take three Heldrakes and as many Guardsmen as you can afford after you buy them their mandatory cheap HQ. I suppose there's no reason why you couldn't swap some weapons on a Valk and have them 'count-as' Heldrakes and/or just use cultists (appropriately equipped) to represent the original guardsmen in order to tie the theme together as a Chaos force or go down the 'Traitor Guard' path.

*If they were reasonably priced, I actually liked the look of them or I was under any illusion that they won't suddenly become useless some time in the future when the next Chaos Codex lands...

Three Heldrakes cost 510 points...

1 Heldrake, 170 pts

1 Heldrake, 170 pts

1 Heldrake, 170 pts

If they looked like this I  might have bought a couple...

...which at 2000 points would leave enough remaining for fifty or so Guardsmen unequipped or forty or so if your giving them and their Command Squad some gear. Tactics are pretty self explanatory, Terminators advance, air-force arrives and the Guardsmen take objectives while the Terminators and Heldrakes destroy the enemy army...hopefully....

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Going back to 40K - Part 3 (a) - Rock, Paper, Scissors

I've always been a fan of balanced armies but after some consideration I may have to look at a more extreme list variant in order to deal with the piss-poor design of 6th. The next few posts will be lists that are pretty much the absolute opposite to 'balanced' and hopefully I'll get some constructive ideas going from you lot ;-)

Since I use my Night Reapers to 'count-as' virtually everything Marine it doesn't really matter what codex I use. Dark Angel Tactical Squads are cheap as are their Librarians and (for no apparent reason) so are their Jump Marines so they'll make a perfectly adequate 'core' army. I'll then use allies (Blood Angels) to get some more Jump Troops which as a happy coincidence will also score.

I suppose this would be 'paper' and is purely for discussion purposes...

42 marines move forward, 60 take objectives or vice versa if the objectives are far apart I suppose.

Marine Spam. 
Dark Angels Core.

1 Librarian c/w Jump Pack and Melta Bomb - 90 points

10 Man Tactical Squad c/w Plasmagun and Multi-Melta - 165 Points
10 Man Tactical Squad c/w Plasmagun and Multi-Melta - 165 Points
10 Man Tactical Squad c/w Plasmagun and Multi-Melta - 165 Points
10 Man Tactical Squad c/w Plasmagun and Multi-Melta - 165 Points
10 Man Tactical Squad c/w Plasmagun and Multi-Melta - 165 Points
10 Man Tactical Squad c/w Plasmagun and Multi-Melta - 165 Points

10 Man Assault Marines Squad c/w Flamers x2 and Melta Bomb - 185 Points
10 Man Assault Marines Squad c/w Flamers x2 and Melta Bomb - 185 Points

Blood Angels Allies.

1 Librarian c/ Jump Pack - 120 Points

10 Man Assault Marines c/w Meltagun x2 and Meltabomb - 215 Points
10 Man Assault Marines c/w Meltagun x2 and Meltabomb - 215 Points

Total: 2000


Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Going back to 40K - Part 2 - Initial Thoughts.

I'm going with Marines for the one reason that I have no intention on spending any money whatsoever on this project. Though I still enjoy the whole 'Grimdark' thing I have no intention of supporting GW's massive price hikes or 'buy this we've made it broken' policies just to see if something can be done. That's the preachy bit done with...Lets get into the list building part of this thing then. I'll be starting with something fairly traditional though if after play-testing I feel that something a bit more radical will do the job then I'm happy to field 100 Marines and see how that does, lol.

Lets start at the top with HQ choices. I've never been a fan of most 'special' characters and I also have issues with tooled-up versions of basic characters as whatever job you give them that job can invariably be done better by spending the points on an actual unit. So I'll be taking a generic HQ and as Librarians or their other codex equivalents are pretty much the same in role and points cost that doesn't take much thinking about.

As with all balanced forces I'll require a variety of weapon strengths in order to deal with infantry, armour and will also require either some twin-linked or skyfire equipped weapons to sort out flyers. As a personal preference I'll go for the twin-linked option to deal with the pesky flying things as those weapons are also useful against other enemies as well. Firstly though we'll need some troops and fortunately that's easy with Marines. Though I've had a lot of success in the past with minimum size units in transports I think this edition I'll be served better by larger (10 man) units and will go with the a few Tactical Squads or equivalent in Rhino's. There's also a lot of Terminators and other heavy infantry about these days so they would most likely be needing some Plasma weaponry on those units. I'd like to get away with just the two squads of ten men but realistically I'll need at least three.

I need a rough idea of points spent so I'll use the standard Space Marine codex values for now and I can tweak them if I codex hop.

1 Space Marine Librarian in Power Armour, 100 pts (Force Axe; Warlord)

9 Tactical Squad, 220 pts (Plasma gun; Free Weapon)
1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

9 Tactical Squad, 220 pts (Plasma gun; Free Weapon)
1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

9 Tactical Squad, 220 pts (Plasma gun; Free Weapon)
1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

That's 760 points spent so far

Something I used to do a lot in 5th edition was to deploy a couple of Dreadnoughts armed with Twin-linked Autocannons in each corner of my deployment zone to give myself some long range mid-strength fire-power and supplement those with two or three Predators with either Lascannon Sponsons (for anti-armour duties) or Heavy Bolter ones for anti-infantry duties. With the revised vehicle damage rules those armour 12 Dreadnoughts are far less survivable than they were so those Predators will now most likely need to be parked right in front of them in order to give them an effective armour value of 13.

1 Dreadnought, 125 pts (Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)
1 Dreadnought, 125 pts (Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

That's another 250 points bringing our total to 1010 spent

Though I'm still going to occasionally be vulnerable to side shots from flyers it at least gives them a chance of doing some damage before they get taken out. Normally I'd take three of each but in this case it's going to be difficult to deploy them in a manner in which they're all protected so I'll take two of each for now and as currently the list is lacking anti-armour we'll give them Lascannon sponsons.

1 Predator, 120 pts (Lascannon (each side))
1 Predator, 120 pts (Lascannon (each side))

Those additional 240 points bring us to a pleasingly round number of 1250.

So far that gives us 10 S7 shots (8 of which are twin-linked) and 4 S9 shots for dealing with armour at range and three Tactical Squads worth of anti-infantry fire-power. I have to be honest...that's not enough guns for my liking but I still have some points to spend.

So is this going to work as a core?

Probably...but lets be honest it's a bit dull...Maybe I need to think this through a bit more and look into allies.

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

E-Mail In : Cavalry List.

E-Mail In :

GMort.

As Games Workshop has finally decided to release some Thunderwolf and Fenrisian Wolf models I've decided to do a pure Cavalry Space Wolf List. Any chance of some help?

I'm looking at 2000 points and I want at least 3 units of Thunderwolves and 2 of the ordinary ones (units that is). I'm not looking for the most competitive thing ever I just want to use the models and not get (to use your term) kerb stomped every game.  

Any chance?

Reply :

I've covered this before but I can't find where so I'll give it a fresh look.

Thunder, Thunder, Thunder Cats Wolves.

Thunderwolf Cavalry are fairly resilient to small arms fire but like any middle toughness unit can be torrented to death. They're fast so if you want them in amongst your enemy then they can be there fairly quickly which has the added advantage of avoiding that pesky hail of gunfire I mentioned a moment ago. They're going to be a magnet for heavy weapons which may lead you to the temptation to give them an invulnerable save via Storm Shields but that gets expensive as an 'across the board' upgrade. My advice would be to keep them relatively cheap, add the odd upgrade here and there for 'wound allocation' trickery and just shove them down your enemies throat....

Bullet Shields Fenrisian Wolves.

Low leadership and lack of armour is a bad combination on a unit you want to stay in the fight. I personally see Fenrisian Wolves as a fast moving cover save for the rest of your army that the survival of can be considered a bonus rather than a necessity. Even with Canis they can't hold objectives so you'll still need Grey Hunters which (I'm sure I've mentioned before) makes 'pure' cavalry as good as impossible (If you want to win games at least). As they only become 'Troops' in conjunction with Canis Wolfborn, each unit of Fenrisian Wolves equals one less unit of Thunderwolves. Therefore Canis is going to be essential if you want quantities of both.

Other Riders.
Several standard HQ choices can take Thunderwolf mounts and there's Canis to consider as well in addition to the fact that Iron Priests can take them as well.

Space Wolf HQ's on Thunderwolf mounts get expensive but considering how much damage they can do that's understandable. Chaos players would happily exchange their own crappy HQ choices for the Space Wolves ones in a heartbeat which is probably why the Space Wolf codex is most often the first choice for 'counts-as' with Chaos players.....but I digress.....

Canis is worth considering (and for most builds of this type is essential) if your taking a lot of Fenrisian Wolves as the boosts to their Leadership and Initiative are nice to have and he's fairly handy in a scrap himself. If your going to be taking Iron Priests with Cyber Wolves he'll obviously make those better as well...speaking of Iron Priests.....

An Iron Priest on a Thunderwolf really needs ablative wounds in the form of Cyberwolves as otherwise he's not going to last very long. This also gives you some more scary fast moving targets for your opponent to worry about and it also happens to come with a Thunderhammer and a Servo-Arm ;-)

Lets look at some options then,

HQ's.
If were using three units of Thunderwolves and Fenrisian Wolves then were going to have to take Canis. You can take a 2nd Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount if you wish (and a 3rd and 4th if you like but that might be considered both a points sink and a bit of overkill). Canis's options are limited to a couple of extra wolves, The Wolf Lord is a tad more complicated though.....

As a minimum we need the Wolf Lord (obviously) and his ride (equally obviously) which comes to 145 points. A 'Belt of Russ' for the 4+ invulnerable save is definitely worth 25 points.

Saga's are a debatable point...I like Saga of the Warrior Born for the potential extra attacks as I think that Saga of the Bear (The one that gives you Eternal Warrior) can be done without once you've got the base T5 from the mount but others prefer the piece of mind that comes from having the Eternal Warrior rule. The only other that I'd consider is Saga of the Beastslayer for the useful re-rolls against MC's walkers and other tough bastards you might encounter.

As for your weapon options your (as usual) spoilt for choice. You already have Strength 5 Rending from being on a mount. You lose the Rending if you upgrade to a 'special' weapon of some kind but that's a reasonable sacrifice if you pick the right weapon.

I'm going to use Canis on his own and save the points I would have spent on an additional HQ choice to buy more puppies but I thought I'd list your other options in case you have a different core idea in your head.

Iron Priests.
An Iron Priest on a Thunderwolf Mount with four ablative Cyber Wolves comes to 155 points. A Wolftooth Necklace for the 'always hits on 3's' bonus is worth considering for 10 points.

Fenrisian Wolves.
Fenrisian Wolves cost 8 points each and the only upgrade available isn't worth bothering with. Take as many as you need (5 and 15 are the minimum and maximum). I tend to end up with them in 12's for no particular reason that I can think of currently.....

Thunderwolf Cavalry.
The core of a Thunderwolf Cavalry list, lol. I'd take them in 4's and I'd upgrade three of them so I can be one of those bastards who takes advantage of the 'wound allocation' rules that seem to bother large portions of the internet. I'd go with,

1 Thunderwolf  Cavalry with Mark of the Wulfen,
1 Thunderwolf Cavalry with Melta Bombs,
1 Thunderwolf Cavalry,
1 Thunderwolf Cavalry with Power Fist.

Which comes to 235 points. If you don't approve of such things or just deem them unnecessary then just keep the Power Fist and spend the other 10 points wherever you like.

Troops.
You need scoring units. Take 2 10 man units of Grey Hunters with 2 special weapons. They don't particularly need a transport in a build like this but you can give them  one if you really want.

There now follows a warning for competitive gamers.

Couldn't find an appropriate warning sign....

Thunderwolf Cavalry lists are a gimmick army. You'll steam-roll over some armies, die hideously to others and calling your army balanced will make people laugh their arses off.....but.....you'll probably have a lot of fun and sometimes that's the point ;-)

If you want to run them competitively take a Rune Priest HQ, 5 Wolf Guard with Combi-Melta's, 5 Units of Grey Hunters with a Meltagun in a Rhino (attach Wolf Guard to these), support with 3 units of Missile Launcher Long Fangs and spend the rest of the points on two tooled-up units of Thunderwolf Cavalry to fist-fuck the enemy with.

Where were we...Oh yes...
Now I've got that off my chest here's the lot from the themed bit of this post put into a list.

'Themed' ThunderCav List.

HQ.
Canis Wolfborn (185), Fenrisian Wolves x2 (+20)   (205)

ELITES.
Iron Priest (50), Thunderwolf Mount (+45), Cyberwolves x4 (+60)   (155)
Iron Priest (50), Thunderwolf Mount (+45), Cyberwolves x4 (+60)   (155)
Iron Priest (50), Thunderwolf Mount (+45), Cyberwolves x4 (+60)   (155)

TROOPS.
Grey Hunters x10 (150), Meltaguns x2 (+20)   (170)
Grey Hunters x10 (150), Meltaguns x2 (+20)   (170)
Fenrisian Wolves x15 (120)
Fenrisian Wolves x10 (80)
Fenrisian Wolves x10 (80)

FAST ATTACK.
Thunderwolf Cavalry x4 (200), Mark of the Wulfen (+5), Melta-bomb(+5), Power-Fist (+25)   (235)
Thunderwolf Cavalry x4 (200), Mark of the Wulfen (+5), Melta-bomb(+5), Power-Fist (+25)   (235)
Thunderwolf Cavalry x4 (200), Mark of the Wulfen (+5), Melta-bomb(+5), Power-Fist (+25)   (235)

TOTAL - 1995


It will be fun enough but if you really want to beat face then I'd use a version of the 'competitive' bit I mention just before the list. It is.....what it is.....

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome

E-Mail In : Shrike Marines Help

E-Mail In :

Hey,
this is a list im working on for GT, i just wanted to run it past you for any improvements or comment.
I have inculded a pair of extra land speeders but i dont think they would be best for the list.

Reply :

The problem with Shrike is that he's not really very good considering his massive price tag unless your taking advantage of his abilities in some way. As you haven't asked me to write you a list but merely to comment on the existing one and suggest improvements then that's what I'll do though the temptation to write you a new list may be too much for me ;-)

1750 Pts - Codex: Space Marines Roster - Louis's Marines

HQ: Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike (1#, 195 pts)
   1 Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike @ 195 pts

I don't like Shrike but if your basing a list around using Shrike then he's essential I suppose. I presume he's going with the unit of Assault Marines and that your planning on a first turn assault by virtue of the 'Infiltrate, Jump, Fleet then charge' combo. This is fine I suppose unless your opponent knows how to bubble-wrap, goes first or seizes the initiative. 

Elite: Dreadnought (2#, 150 pts)
   1 Dreadnought @ 150 pts (Heavy Flamer; Drop Pod)
      1 Drop Pod (Drop Pod Assault)

Elite: Dreadnought (2#, 150 pts)
   1 Dreadnought @ 150 pts (Heavy Flamer; Drop Pod)
      1 Drop Pod (Drop Pod Assault)

Presumably you'll be dropping these as your first wave and hoping for a triple threat when combined with Shrikes (presumably) Assault Squad. As you have no choice but to drop two of the three 'Drop Pod' units in your army, any force that is capable of utilising full reserve against you (combined with some armies reserve manipulation abilities) could leave you sitting on the battlefield with nothing to do till the opposing army turns up next turn and blows you to fucking pieces. Heavy Flamers are fine on a 'Drop Dread' but are a bit of a waste otherwise.

Troops: Scout Squad (10#, 190 pts)
   9 Scout Squad @ 190 pts (Sergeant Telion)
      1 Sergeant Telion

Troops: Scout Squad (10#, 165 pts)
   9 Scout Squad @ 165 pts
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1)

You didn't tell me what these were armed with but I'm guessing you'll be using them to assault with as (other than Telion) they have no effective ranged weapons at all which usually means they'll be given Combat Blades. If your using Telions unit for objective holding then you might as well give them Sniper Rifles and a Missile Launcher and if your planning on assaulting with them then Telion is a waste of points. Of course you could arm Telions unit as two separately equipped halves but I wouldn't recommend it as a combat squad of scouts will die to a strong breeze (or even a weak one come to that).

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 245 pts)
   9 Tactical Squad @ 245 pts (Meltagun; Multi-melta; Drop Pod)
      1 Sergeant (Combi-Meltagun x1; Power Fist x1)
      1 Drop Pod (Drop Pod Assault)

They'll land, kill a tank (probably) then die to all the units not killing the two Dreadnoughts or Shrikes unit though there are enough other priority targets so they might be safe. Also I'd prefer to see five Drop Pods across the army so you can support Shrike with a three Pod first wave rather than a two pod one. Doing that might be tricky without rewriting your whole army however.

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (2#, 140 pts)
   2 Land Speeder Squadron @ 140 pts (Multi-melta x2; Heavy Flamer x2)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (2#, 140 pts)
   2 Land Speeder Squadron @ 140 pts (Multi-melta x2; Heavy Flamer x2)

These are fine in the right list. I'm not sure that this is the right list for them however. If deployed then they're a soft target, if reserved then they might not turn up in time to be really helpful, additionally two Landspeeders have quite a big footprint if your dropping them onto a crowded board.

Fast Attack: Assault Squad (10#, 225 pts)
   9 Assault Squad @ 225 pts (Flamer)
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1)

Shrike needs a unit to go with so I suppose it might as well be these guys though a unit that can have two special weapons should really have two special weapons.

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (5#, 150 pts)
   4 Devastator Squad @ 150 pts (Missile Launcher x4)
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)

Reasonably priced light anti-tank unit in the right army. Do they compliment this list though? You sometimes need some ranged anti-tank and these are fine for that purpose as long as you have enough other threats to stop them being torrented away.

Total Roster Cost: 1750

I'm guessing your plan is to sit Telions unit on an objective, then Assault with Shrikes unit, two Drop Pod units and then charge in with everything else as a 2nd wave or via outflanking with your minimal fire support popping tanks. This is fine in theory as long as,

a) your opponent doesn't 'bubble-wrap' or
b) is actually on the table ;-) or
c) your three units are enough to do the job.....

So as long as your going first then you should do just fine, however if your not I can see you having a few problems with the list in it's current incarnation. It's worth remembering though that you don't have to put anything in the Drop Pods as you can drop them empty if you like and deploy the units that were in them as normal  (should you so wish).

without throwing your theme out all together then you might consider this,

1750 Pts - Codex: Space Marines Roster - Louis Snazle's Marines ver 2.0

HQ: Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike (1#, 195 pts)
   1 Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike @ 195 pts

Elite: Dreadnought (2#, 150 pts)
   1 Dreadnought @ 150 pts (Heavy Flamer; Drop Pod)
      1 Drop Pod (Drop Pod Assault)

Elite: Dreadnought (2#, 150 pts)
   1 Dreadnought @ 150 pts (Heavy Flamer; Drop Pod)
      1 Drop Pod (Drop Pod Assault)

Elite: Dreadnought (2#, 150 pts)
   1 Dreadnought @ 150 pts (Heavy Flamer; Drop Pod)
      1 Drop Pod (Drop Pod Assault)

Troops: Scout Squad (10#, 200 pts)
   9 Scout Squad @ 200 pts (Sniper Rifle x8; Missile Launcher; Sergeant Telion)
      1 Sergeant Telion

Troops: Scout Squad (10#, 180 pts)
   9 Scout Squad @ 180 pts (Combat Blade x9)
      1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Combi-Meltagun x1; Power Fist x1)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 245 pts)
   9 Tactical Squad @ 245 pts (Meltagun; Multi-melta; Drop Pod)
      1 Sergeant (Combi-Meltagun x1; Power Fist x1)
      1 Drop Pod (Drop Pod Assault)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 245 pts)
   9 Tactical Squad @ 245 pts (Meltagun; Multi-melta; Drop Pod)
      1 Sergeant (Combi-Meltagun x1; Power Fist x1)
      1 Drop Pod (Drop Pod Assault)

Fast Attack: Assault Squad (10#, 235 pts)
   9 Assault Squad @ 235 pts (Flamer; Flamer)
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1)

Total Roster Cost: 1750

Your first wave threat is now three drop units and Shrikes unit and you have a greater variety of tactical options (imo) should you be going 2nd.

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

E-Mail In : Dual Land Raider Chaos List.

E-Mail In :

Hi G,

I had inherited a Chaos Space Marine army from a friend and it's been sitting in various spots around my hobby room and I remembered that it had a couple of Land Raiders in it that I don't remember him ever using in a game. They're a bit too well glued together and covered in spikes to easily convert them for another army So If hypothetically I wanted to do a 2000 point Chaos list with a pair of Land Raiders in it would they have to be in an assault list or is there some other way of using them? There's also a fair pile of Plague Marines, three Rhino's, a couple (maybe three?) of those terrible old Obliterators and a couple of Preds that have seen better days (he also gave me the old sprues for these so I can probably make different turrets or sponsons for them as the old ones have fell off anyway). I don't mind spending $50 or so to buy a couple of new bits for it but that's about all I'd want to invest in it.


P.S. There's also a pair of Daemon Princes painted in Khorne colours but I can most likely strip them down for re-painting as they're metal ones.

Reply :

The problem with Chaos Land Raiders is that they don't have 'Power of the Machine Spirit' which limits their offensive options slightly (well, a lot actually) when moving forward the maximum distance. Also Chaos only get the 'standard' Land Raider which is better used as a stationary gun platform. With that in mind you might consider having those Land Raiders sitting on an objective with a scoring unit inside while the rest of your army either moves forward or counter assaults as applicable. If your happy to buy a cheap unit of Terminators so as to get a Land Raider in the elite slot rather than heavy (of course then your scoring unit needs to jump into the vehicle on turn one as they can't start in a transport that's not their own) then you can still use the Heavy Support slots for Obliterators, Predators or some other source of ranged anti-tank.

Then following list should fulfil your basic requirements using the stuff you have but I'd be lying if I said it was the best that Chaos can do*.

* Though even Chaos's best is a bit shaky these days.....

2000 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster - Dual Land Raider Chaos List.

HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 155 pts)
   1 Daemon Prince @ 155 pts (Wings; Mark of Slaanesh; Lash of Submission x1)

HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 155 pts)
   1 Daemon Prince @ 155 pts (Wings; Mark of Slaanesh; Lash of Submission x1)

These can hide behind the Land Raiders as a counter assault unit (or just to lash things away from them if you like) or can go off and kill small units as long as you think you can get them there without them getting shot to pieces.

Elite: Chaos Terminators (4#, 345 pts)
   1 Chaos Terminators @ 345 pts (Terminator; Terminator; Land Raider)
      1 Terminator (Reaper Autocannon x1)
      2 Terminator (Combi-melta x2)
      1 Land Raider (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; 2x Twin-linked Lascannons; Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter)

Elite: Chaos Terminators (4#, 345 pts)
   1 Chaos Terminators @ 345 pts (Terminator; Terminator; Land Raider)
      1 Terminator (Reaper Autocannon x1)
      2 Terminator (Combi-melta x2)
      1 Land Raider (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; 2x Twin-linked Lascannons; Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter)

The Terminators can add to your light anti-tank fire-power with their Reaper Autocannons or can deep strike in if you think there's a viable target for one or both of them. The two Plague Marine units without transports jump into the Land Raiders at the earliest opportunity in order to make them scoring.

Troops: Plague Marines (5#, 115 pts)
   5 Plague Marines @ 115 pts

Troops: Plague Marines (5#, 115 pts)
   5 Plague Marines @ 115 pts

These steal the Terminators ride.

Troops: Plague Marines (6#, 175 pts)
   5 Plague Marines @ 175 pts (Personal Icon; Meltagun x2; Rhino)
      1 Rhino (Twin-Linked Bolter)

Troops: Plague Marines (6#, 175 pts)
   5 Plague Marines @ 175 pts (Personal Icon; Meltagun x2; Rhino)
      1 Rhino (Twin-Linked Bolter)

These can tank-hunt or camp on mid-field objectives if that's your preference. They have Icons so that the Terminators can Deep Strike off them should they be in a decent position.

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 130 pts)
   1 Predator @ 130 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Lascannon)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 130 pts)
   1 Predator @ 130 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Lascannon)

Some more anti-tank fire-power. You can park these either side of the Land Raiders to prevent certain sneaky units (such as Wolf Scouts) from melta-ing your Raiders to death as soon as they arrive. If there not needed for that purpose then your best bet is to put each one in a corner of their own so they can go for side armour shots on incoming vehicles.

Heavy Support: Obliterators (2#, 150 pts)
   2 Obliterators @ 150 pts

These add to your ranged fire-power and also make a decent combo with Lash Princes for reasons that I'm sure don't need explaining ;-)

Total Roster Cost: 1990

Do what you like with the last 10 points.....

It has an adequate amount of ranged fire-power and has some resilient units in it as well for objective holding.

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

Blood Angels Project - Provisional List

I need to do something new or I get bored. I'm also still desperately unemployed so have to make that new army from my bitz box.

So rather than adding a whole new section to my Night Reapers 3rd Company I'm going to make my 2nd Company slightly larger using parts I have lying about.

The provisional test list can be found below. It's currently more a case of testing how the various elements of the army compliment each other rather than testing it as a completed competitive army. A brief explanation of why the unit was chosen can be found below each relevant entry.

1750 Pts - Blood Angels Roster - Blood Angels Idea

HQ: Librarian in Power Armour (1#, 100 pts)
   1 Librarian in Power Armour @ 100 pts (Fear of the Darkness; Shield of Sanguinius)

A solid utility HQ. As there will be five Razorbacks moving forward in most circumstances 'Shield' seemed like an obvious power. As for 'Fear of the Darkness' well I've seen it's effects vary from the incredible to the indifferent but there isn't really another power that's any more useful for this build so I'll see how it performs.

Troops: Assault Squad (6#, 170 pts)
   3 Assault Squad @ 170 pts (Remove Jump Packs; Meltagun; Razorback)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun (Remove Jump Packs)
      1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
      1 Razorback (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon)

Troops: Assault Squad (6#, 180 pts)
   3 Assault Squad @ 180 pts (Remove Jump Packs; Meltagun; Razorback)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun (Remove Jump Packs)
      1 Sergeant (Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Infernus Pistol x1)
      1 Razorback (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon)

Troops: Assault Squad (6#, 180 pts)
   3 Assault Squad @ 180 pts (Remove Jump Packs; Meltagun; Razorback)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun (Remove Jump Packs)
      1 Sergeant (Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Infernus Pistol x1)
      1 Razorback (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon)

Nothing special here particularly. Three Assault Squads, two of which are dual Melta and one of which is single Melta (unless you count the Melta-bomb that is) loaded into a Fast Razorback with a handy assault cannon on top.

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 280 pts)
   9 Tactical Squad @ 280 pts (Meltagun; Plasma Cannon; Razorback)
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)
      1 Razorback (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 280 pts)
   9 Tactical Squad @ 280 pts (Meltagun; Plasma Cannon; Razorback)
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)
      1 Razorback (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon)

Those Tactical Squads will pretty much always 'combat squad' giving me a pair of 5 Man units with a Plasma Cannon to sit on my objective and a pair of dual Melta units to advance along with the Assault Squads.

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 135 pts)
   1 Predator @ 135 pts (Lascannon)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 135 pts)
   1 Predator @ 135 pts (Lascannon)

These will sit in the corners of my deployment zones trying to get two Lascannon shots and a further two Autocannon shots into the side armour of things or failing that the front armour will have to do.

Fast Attack: Baal Predator (1#, 145 pts)
   1 Baal Predator @ 145 pts (Heavy Bolter)

Fast Attack: Baal Predator (1#, 145 pts)
   1 Baal Predator @ 145 pts (Heavy Bolter)

Anti-Infantry fire-power that doubles up as light anti-tank. These will probably park either side of the objective holding units to give them a bit of extra protection.

Total Roster Cost: 1750

This army is relatively easy for me to create as I can make Marines from my Bitz box and can use the rest of 2nd Companies transports for the Assault Squads once I make some Assault Cannon turrets and as anybody who's followed my blog for any length of time knows, I'm okay for Predators, lol. That just leaves a couple of Plasma cannon guys to build.

Assault Squads.
I've built four because I've a feeling that I'll end up going with that many Assault squads and a single objective holding Tactical Squad rather than the above list configuration and I don't want to piss about making another unit later on.

I've replaced the Close Combat Weapon with the Infernus Pistol rather than replacing the Bolt Pistol as I figure that a shot that goes further than 6" might be occasionally useful and it doesn't matter to my number of attacks at all. It also more closely fits 2nd Companies 'kill it from as far away as possible' philosophy.

Plasma Cannon.
Strangely enough I didn't have any Plasma Cannon Marines made so I've had to build some.

and I've also had to build some Assault Cannons as well...

So that's the list I'm going to be using for the preliminary testing.

Thoughts and Comments are (as usual) most welcome.

E-Mail In : Blood Angels 'Jumper' List.

She's got angel wings and is in some blood therefore this picture is totally relevant to this article.....

E-Mail In :

Hi GMort,

I've been using  a jump pack BA list for a few months now but it's not working very well. I've got plenty of Melta for dealing with tanks and Flamers for killing infantry. I also had some trouble with getting shot to bits before I could do anything so I added some vanguard units but they've been really disappointing for the points I've had to spend on them, there main job is to remove bubblewrap but they don't seem to manage it often and I hardly ever manage to destroy vehicles with them (which is their primary role really) so you can ditch them if you like. I thought 50 Marines would be loads even at 2000 points but I'm losing more games than I'm winning and to be honest even the wins have felt like they happened by accident, lol. You seem to give good advice without being a cunt about it so I thought I'd drop you this e-mail. To make matters worse I want to use it in a 1750 point tournament in my local area and I've a horrible feeling that it will suck even worse at that points value. Is the list beyond hope or can something be salvaged from it?

Reply :

I've converted your list into Army Builder so I could play around with it more easily. I'll post your list first so I can point out some (imo) mistakes you've made and then I'll post a list taking all that stuff into account (including your new points value requirement). 

2000 Pts - Blood Angels Roster

HQ: Captain in Power Armour (1#, 160 pts)
   1 Captain in Power Armour @ 160 pts (Jump Pack; Combi-Meltagun x1; Power Fist x1)

I'm reasonably sure that this Captain isn't bringing a lot to your list. The Power Fist loses you the Initiative advantage of the Captain and that's a lot of points to spend just for an extra Melta shot. If you really want an Honor Guard then you can still have one if we leave in the Librarian which I'm going to recommend you do.

: Honour Guard (5#, 200 pts)
   1 Honour Guard @ 200 pts (Equip with Jump Packs; Blood Champion; Honour Guard)
      1 Blood Champion (Jump Pack)
      1 Sanguinary Novitiate (Jump Pack)
      3 Honour Guard (Jump Pack; Flamer x1)

A Flamer equipped Honour Guard is okay if your using Dante to 'place' the unit wherever you want when it drops to clear out objective holding units. Other than that it's going to draw all the fire-power of an infantry list and be laughed at by a mechanised one. If you want to use an Honour Guard in this way then it's best to give it Meltaguns and Flamers so it'd dual purpose.

HQ: Librarian in Power Armour (1#, 140 pts)
   1 Librarian in Power Armour @ 140 pts (Jump Pack; Infernus Pistol; Blood Lance; Fear of the Darkness)

The powers are fine, not sure about the Infernus Pistol though.

Elite: Sanguinary Priest (3#, 255 pts)
   1 Sanguinary Priest @ 255 pts (Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour)
      3 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour (Jump Pack; Combi-Meltagun)

I'm presuming that one of these goes with each Assault Squad and it's equipped this way to give the unit dual-melta. Personally I'd rather give them a Power Weapon of some kind as they are WS 5. If they're with the Assault Squad anyway then it's unlikely that they can avoid combat so they might as well help out.

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 235 pts)
   7 Assault Squad @ 235 pts (Meltagun; Flamer)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Assault Marine with Flamer
      1 Sergeant (Lightning Claw x2)

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 235 pts)
   7 Assault Squad @ 235 pts (Meltagun; Flamer)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Assault Marine with Flamer
      1 Sergeant (Lightning Claw x2)

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 235 pts)
   7 Assault Squad @ 235 pts (Meltagun; Flamer)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Assault Marine with Flamer
      1 Sergeant (Lightning Claw x2)

Sergeants need Power Fists. Unit needs two Meltaguns.

Fast Attack: Vanguard Veteran Squad (5#, 270 pts)
   1 Vanguard Veteran Squad @ 270 pts (Equip with Jump Packs; Vanguard Veteran; Vanguard Veteran)
      1 Sergeant (Jump Pack; Melta Bombs; Power Fist)
      1 Vanguard Veteran (Jump Pack; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1)
      3 Vanguard Veteran (Jump Pack; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)

Fast Attack: Vanguard Veteran Squad (5#, 270 pts)
   1 Vanguard Veteran Squad @ 270 pts (Equip with Jump Packs; Vanguard Veteran; Vanguard Veteran)
      1 Sergeant (Jump Pack; Melta Bombs; Power Fist)
      1 Vanguard Veteran (Jump Pack; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1)
      3 Vanguard Veteran (Jump Pack; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)

These are very expensive for what they do. If (as you say in your e-mail) your using them to destroy vehicles then a small 'suicide' Assault Squad would do the job for a lot less points and could also double as a moving cover save for your larger more important squads as well as being a cheap 'drop on an objective while scoring' unit. So I am indeed going to 'ditch' them, lol.

Total Roster Cost: 2000

To be honest I can actually quite easily turn that into a 1750 list using the changes I've mentioned.

1750 Pts - Blood Angels Roster

HQ: Librarian in Power Armour (1#, 140 pts)
   1 Librarian in Power Armour @ 140 pts (Jump Pack; Infernus Pistol; Blood Lance; Fear of the Darkness)

: Honour Guard (5#, 225 pts)
   1 Honour Guard @ 225 pts (Equip with Jump Packs; Honour Guard)
      1 Sanguinary Novitiate (Jump Pack)
      4 Honour Guard (Jump Pack; Flamer x1; Meltagun x1)

Elite: Sanguinary Priest (3#, 270 pts)
   1 Sanguinary Priest @ 270 pts (Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour)
      3 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour (Jump Pack; Lightning Claw)

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 245 pts)
   7 Assault Squad @ 245 pts (Meltagun; Meltagun)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Sergeant (Hand Flamer x1; Power Fist x1)

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 245 pts)
   7 Assault Squad @ 245 pts (Meltagun; Meltagun)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Sergeant (Hand Flamer x1; Power Fist x1)

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 245 pts)
   7 Assault Squad @ 245 pts (Meltagun; Meltagun)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Sergeant (Hand Flamer x1; Power Fist x1)

Troops: Assault Squad (5#, 125 pts)
   3 Assault Squad @ 125 pts (Meltagun)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Infernus Pistol x1)

Troops: Assault Squad (5#, 125 pts)
   3 Assault Squad @ 125 pts (Meltagun)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Infernus Pistol x1)

Troops: Assault Squad (5#, 125 pts)
   3 Assault Squad @ 125 pts (Meltagun)
      1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
      1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Infernus Pistol x1)

Total Roster Cost: 1745

I'll be interested to hear how you do in your tournament as list feedback is always nice to have.

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.

E-Mail In : World Eaters Request.

Editors Note : Due to a recent issue somebody had with a blog post (Its a long story that I wont bore you with) I am no longer going to put names at the bottom of 'e-mails in' unless I'm specifically asked to leave it in by the original sender.

E-Mail In :

Hello Gmort,


I know your not a fan of the Chaos Codex but I like to use the right codex for an army if it exists so I'd like to use it to make a Khorne themed army. I know you use Kharn in your Chaos lists sometimes so I thought you'd be the best person to ask. I also figured I'd be more likely to get an answer from you than waiting an eternity for one of the other blogs to answer me or to have Stelek tell me I'm a fucking idiot for even trying it. So I want the army to be mainly Khorne Zerkers and I don't really want to many oddball things like Obliterators in it that are meant to be rare rather than there being about 20 of the sods hanging around with every Chaos warband consisting of more than two guys. I'm also not sure about using Dreadnoughts because of the whole 'turn around and shoot your own guys' thingy. I don't care about winning every game but I'd rather not lose every game if you know what I mean, lol. 


Oh and I'd like a 2000 point list if you don't mind.

Reply :

Okay a few points you raised need clarifying before we get started.

1) Themed lists have problems from the start unless it's a theme around something effective and the Chaos Codex itself isn't very well balanced in that regard. However saying that if your willing to put the time into learning an army thoroughly then you can succeed with almost anything. But be warned that an experienced player with an optimised list from a decent codex is still going to kick the shit out of you.

2) As you say in your e-mail, from a 'fluff' point of view having access to three Obliterator cults is a tad unlikely outside of an Iron Warriors force. A single cult is still a possibility though so I reserve the right to include at least one as a Heavy Support choice.

3) Chaos Dreadnoughts shoot the nearest visible unit, not the nearest unit which is an important distinction and vehicle weapon fire arcs are well defined in the rule book. I already covered the issue a long time ago in this blog post right here so I'm not going into it again. For those of you who don't agree with my interpretation feel free to point me to an official GW Errata that tells me I'm wrong.....he's a clue....there isn't one ;-)

Here's an army list with the usual caveats of 'Themed Lists are rarely optimisable' and 'The Chaos Codex sucks'....


2000 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster - Berzerker Themed List

HQ: Kharn the Betrayer (1#, 165 pts)
   1 Kharn the Betrayer @ 165 pts

: Summoned Lesser Daemon (6#, 78 pts)
   6 Summoned Lesser Daemon @ 78 pts

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 100 pts)
   1 Dreadnought @ 100 pts (Multi-melta)

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 100 pts)
   1 Dreadnought @ 100 pts (Multi-melta)

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 100 pts)
   1 Dreadnought @ 100 pts (Multi-melta)

Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (8#, 232 pts)
   6 Khorne Berzerkers @ 232 pts (Rhino)
      1 Skull Champion (Power Fist)
      1 Rhino (Twin-Linked Bolter; Combi-melta)

Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (9#, 253 pts)
   7 Khorne Berzerkers @ 253 pts (Rhino)
      1 Skull Champion (Power Fist)
      1 Rhino (Twin-Linked Bolter; Combi-melta)

Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (9#, 253 pts)
   7 Khorne Berzerkers @ 253 pts (Rhino)
      1 Skull Champion (Power Fist)
      1 Rhino (Twin-Linked Bolter; Combi-melta)

Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (9#, 253 pts)
   7 Khorne Berzerkers @ 253 pts (Rhino)
      1 Skull Champion (Power Fist)
      1 Rhino (Twin-Linked Bolter; Combi-melta)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 115 pts)
   1 Predator @ 115 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Heavy Bolter; Havoc Launcher)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 115 pts)
   1 Predator @ 115 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Heavy Bolter; Havoc Launcher)

Heavy Support: Obliterators (3#, 225 pts)
   3 Obliterators @ 225 pts

Total Roster Cost: 1989

7 Melta weapons (though 4 of them aren't exactly reliable), a bit of heavy anti-tank (your target priority will need to be spot on I'm afraid) and some light anti-tank and/or anti-infantry from the Predators. In objective Missions, try to stick the objectives in your opponents deployment zone as that's where most of your army will be heading anyway.

The Lesser Daemons use Kharns Personal Icon to appear so make sure he doesn't die before they appear. Their main purpose is to give Kharn some scoring ablative wounds so he can dump his squad and still get some shit done without one lucky hit insta-killing him from across the table.

There's ten points left that you can use for some Melta-bombs or another Icon or two if your that worried about the appearance location of a handful of Lesser Daemons.

Thoughts and comments are (as usual) most welcome.