I'm going to aim for a 2000 point list and people can scale it back if they feel so inclined.
Lets start with HQ's
As discussed we need Bolt of Tzeentch in order to de-mech our opponents. Most 5th edition armies with the exception of Tyranids (and Daemons obviously) are going to have a lot of vehicles that we need to pop. A Grey Knight Razorback Spam list will more than likely have disembarked a lot of their units in order to get maximum benefit from their unit fire-power but in a Kill Point game we'll still want those transports dead.
Though a Slaaneshi Herald is useful for it's speed and high initiative we can get similar benefits in other slots. What we don't get much of in other slots is anti-vehicle shooting so we'll be taking some of these guys,
HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 95 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 95 pts (Bolt of Tzeentch; Chariot of Tzeentch)
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| There isn't a picture of a Herald of Tzeentch so I used this instead. |
For our 95 points we get a moderately survivable BoT platform. Due to Heralds only taking up half a HQ slot we can take for of these and are going to.
So that's 380 points spent,
Now we need to kill things quickly and for that our best options in the elite slot are Fiends of Slaanesh. We'll take full units of six and give one of them in each unit Unholy Might.
Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 190 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 190 pts (Unholy Might x1)
Three of those sets us back another 570 points bringing our running total to 950. Time for some troops methinks,
My personal preference is two objective holding units with at least another two moving forward. The best choice for defensive are Plaguebearers and our best choice for offensive is Bloodletters. We'll take a pair of minimum sized Plaguebearer units and a couple of mid sized Bloodletter units.
Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts
Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts
Troops: Bloodletters of Khorne (10#, 160 pts)
10 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 160 pts
Troops: Bloodletters of Khorne (10#, 160 pts)
10 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 160 pts
That's another 470 points spent bringing our current total to 1420.
We'll skip Fast attack for now and jump to Heavy Support as our four Bolts of Tzeentch aren't really enough. As discussed previously a Tzeentch Daemon Princes BS of 5 makes him a reliable gun platform and the increased invulnerable save helps their survivability. We'll take three of those then...
Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Tzeentch)
That's another 420 more points gone, leaving us with 160 left to spend. Back to Fast Attack then ;-)
We decided that Flesh Hounds of Khorne were our best option but we unfortunately can't afford three lots. Lets settle for the one then. A unit of 10 will set us back 150 points,
Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (10#, 150 pts)
10 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 150 pts
Bringing our total to 1990 points.
However, I'd really like Karanak in this unit and he'll put us 25 points over our 2000 point limit.
Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (10#, 185 pts)
9 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 185 pts
1 Karanak, Hound of Vengeance
Total 2025 points.
Time for a slight re-think. Unfortunately due to my awesome powers of optimisation there aren't really many points to spare without reducing unit sizes and that's a bad idea, especially at 2000 points.
The only place I can think of to get those points is from the Fiends 'Unholy Might'. So would losing that upgrade cause us many problems?
Well the only things in the Grey Knight Codex that are higher than Toughness four are Draigo and Karamazov (T5) and the Dreadknight (T6). We'll still be wounding the first two on 4's and the Dreadknight on 5's but as it's very likely that Dark Excommunication will remove that extra strength as well as our rending claws should we attack a Dreadknight then the difference between Strength 5 and 6 on one model isn't that much really.In addition our stupidly low chance of penetrating armour 14 via rending becomes a stupidly low chance of glancing armour 14 via rending. The Daemon Prince will just have to deal with those...
Okay so we can have Karanak now which makes our final list look like this,
2000 Pts - Chaos Daemons Roster
HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 95 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 95 pts (Bolt of Tzeentch; Chariot of Tzeentch)
HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 95 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 95 pts (Bolt of Tzeentch; Chariot of Tzeentch)
HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 95 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 95 pts (Bolt of Tzeentch; Chariot of Tzeentch)
HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 95 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 95 pts (Bolt of Tzeentch; Chariot of Tzeentch)
Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts
Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts
Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts
Troops: Bloodletters of Khorne (10#, 160 pts)
10 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 160 pts
Troops: Bloodletters of Khorne (10#, 160 pts)
10 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 160 pts
Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts
Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts
Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (10#, 185 pts)
9 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 185 pts
1 Karanak, Hound of Vengeance
Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Tzeentch)
Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Tzeentch)
Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Tzeentch)
Total Roster Cost: 1995
As for 'Waves' I'd drop the four Heralds, two lots of Bloodletters and one of the Daemon Princes first. The second wave would then be 2 Daemon Princes, 3 lots of Fiends and the Flesh Hounds. That way we should be able to pop a few transports while giving our opponent the worry about choosing between neutralising the shooting or stopping the Bloodletters before they get a chance to assault something, with the Daemon Prince being a worry in both areas. Then our 2nd wave should consist of our dangerous close combat units ready to assault the (hopefully by now) disembarked units on turns three and onwards and our objective holding units to.....well....hold objectives.
Should we be unfortunate enough to get our non preferred wave then at least we have two shooty units and 48, T4 wounds worth of assault units for our opponent to deal with before they get in his face on (hopefully) turn two.
Well that (imo) is a balanced Daemon list that can handle Grey Knights (with a bit of luck and good planning) and everything else with a fair chance of success.
Of course if anybody has any better ideas then I'm open to suggestions ;-)
Isn't this your normal army anyway?
ReplyDelete@ Mike - It's not far off.
ReplyDeleteThe Chaos Daemon codex is so badly designed that certain units just become no-brainers. Plus I was trying to avoid tailoring it too specifically to Grey Knights as that's no use in tournaments.
The annoying thing is that you could probably fix the Daemon codex with a single page FAQ...
looks good, i do need to play your deamons at some point with ravens, might have to tell steph about the list when she starts them in summer
ReplyDeleteLooks fine, but my opinion is little different. I think chariot heralds only with bolt is waste of points, give them master of sorcery and we are legion (for 15pts per herald ), at this moment heralds can use both gaze and bolt on two separate targets - bolt targets tanks or termies and gaze to 3+ infantry and/or can glance another transport. Give DPs daemonic gaze too, they can't shoot at two targets as heralds, but gaze with bolt can be good anti MEQ. That cost you another 60 points (20pts per prince). Give unholy might to fiends back - that is good for wound allocation and can deal better on dreadnoughts, transports and can penetrate Land Raiders! Drop flesh hounds of khorne and remaining 40 points... give instruments on blood letters, princes....
ReplyDeleteI would defiantly go for Mastery on the Heralds. Even if they are shooting the same target it is three extra chances to glance a Rhino and gets better once marines are in the open.
ReplyDeleteI have the same thought exactly - the Heralds come with Gaze, and you're purchasing Bolt - why not spend the extra 5 points so you can shoot both weapons at once?
ReplyDeleteStr5 Assault 3 is nothing to sneeze at hitting tanks in the vulnerable rear armor!
I don't necessarily agree with the need for Gaze on the Princes - it's nice, but it's not a must-have.
I think 10points for the Might in the Fiends is a must-have. Allocating a wound to a Champ can save one whole model; get a bit lucky and you can do it more than once. Also Str6 makes opening higher armor tanks like Leman Russes and Land Raiders easier in the first case and at least possible in the second.
No Breath! I know why, and it's a valid point of view. Still, it's a huge part of my anti-mech strategy. Glancing and stunning vehicles is almost as good as destroying it. Using the template, you can hit more than one in a parking lost setup.
As always, I enjoy your blog GMort - take care!
@ Citizenwilliams - They're a difficult army to do well with consistently. If she's not bothered about it being uber competitive then we can make the best use of whichever models she likes. Otherwise it's going to have to be very similar to this list or the 'cavalry' one if she wants to do well with it.
ReplyDelete@ Jiri, Lyracian and Brent - I'm not risking dropping any of the Bolt units close enough to make rear armour hits with Gaze very likely and the Daemon Princes works out expensive enough as is.
ReplyDeleteEven small alterations to the list from it's current form have knock on effects as I have to drop other things. Though you all have valid points, your suggestions alter the way I use the army in ways that (imo) would weaken it as a whole.
As soon as I have converted enough stuff so I'm not using 'proxy' models for anything, I'll do a battle report and you'll all see what I mean about how the army works the way I use it.