Had an E-Mail about pre-heresy World Eaters using either the Space Wolves or Blood Angels Codices.
This one in fact
Hey mate, I'll try to keep this brief, I'm looking to get back into 40K I was wondering what you would suggest for an 1750 point "Pre-Heresy" World Eaters list?
I've been looking at the BA and SW Codex but can't really make up my mind.
Any suggestions?
-- Kind Regards
After some discussion we decided to ignore the fluff completely and just make up vague justifications as we went along ;-)
Lets look at the units, shall we?
HQ.
Mephiston - Well he's (quite literally) a close combat monster so he's a definite possibility plus he has a psychic hood. He can count as Kharn, or Angron himself for that matter, we'll just say that their raw hatred of psychic powers disrupts them, lol.
Seph - Well he fits the background, but without a power weapon I'm not sure he's good enough.
Librarian - We've decided they sacrificed those guys to Khorne later so we can use them, but being as Dreadnoughts are cooler and we can get psychic defence with those we'll probably use those instead if we need more hoods.
Most of the other HQ choices require builds designed around them so we'll save those for other projects.
Looks like Mephiston wins.
At this point its worth mentioning Honour Guard as another way of radiating a 'Feel no Pain' and 'Furious Charge' bubble for our troops without using an Elite slot on Sanguinary Priests.
Elites.
I think were going to stick with Dreadnoughts of various flavours and maybe a couple of priests if we can find somewhere for them to ride.
Troops.
The Assault Marine entry gives us lots of options but in the interest of keeping the theme as close as possible we'll be removing Jump Packs and buying them a Transport. 5 Man Squads in Razorbacks is a pretty good option (not least because it leaves room for a priest). Though, I'm not 100% happy about using Razorbacks in a pre-heresy list so we'll probably stick with 10 man squads in Rhino's.
Of course Death Company also come in this category and I think they're useful as a 'fuck we need to kill them' style distraction and of course they come with Furious Charge and Feel no Pain so don't need to be in range of a Priest or the Honour Guard.
Fast Attack.
Speeders are an obvious choice and as anti-grav technology was all over the place before the Heresy that's easily justified. We'll see if we need more Melta or more Missiles before we decide on configuration. Attack Bikes are also a good option in this sort of list as they'll have vehicles to hide behind before 'popping-out' and Melting some poor bastards Land Raider, lol.
I'm not a massive fan of Baal Predators due to their relatively short range making them easy targets for shots on their side armour, but we wont rule them out completely just yet.
Heavy Support
As were going to be charging headlong towards the enemy Vindicators are out. Everything else is perfectly viable. This will probably be where our anti infantry firepower will need to be, but that still gives us good options. Dreadnoughts with 2x Twin-Linked Autocannons work as both anti-infantry and are still good vs. light tanks. Predators, though slightly more expensive in a Blood Angels list are still a solid choice. And with their reduced weapons costs even Devastator squads become viable.
There are a myriad of ways of doing it (many options for which are listed above) which is the beauty of the newer codices but I'd probably do it something like this.
1750 Pts - Blood Angels Roster - Pre-Heresy World Eaters ver 1.0 250610
HQ: Mephiston, Lord of Death (1#, 250 pts)
1 Mephiston, Lord of Death @ 250 pts
: Honour Guard (6#, 215 pts)
1 Honour Guard @ 215 pts (Blood Champion; Honour Guard; Rhino)
1 Blood Champion
1 Sanguinary Novitiate
3 Honour Guard (Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino
Elite: Furioso Librarian (1#, 175 pts)
1 Furioso Librarian @ 175 pts (Blood Lance; Wings of Sanguinius)
Elite: Furioso Librarian (1#, 175 pts)
1 Furioso Librarian @ 175 pts (Blood Lance; Wings of Sanguinius)
Troops: Assault Squad (11#, 250 pts)
7 Assault Squad @ 250 pts (Remove Jump Packs; Meltagun; Meltagun; Rhino)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Sergeant (Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1)
1 Rhino
Troops: Assault Squad (11#, 250 pts)
7 Assault Squad @ 250 pts (Remove Jump Packs; Meltagun; Meltagun; Rhino)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun (Remove Jump Packs)
1 Sergeant (Remove Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1)
1 Rhino
Troops: Death Company (6#, 195 pts)
1 Death Company @ 195 pts (Death Company; Death Company; Death Company; Razorback)
3 Death Company
1 Death Company (Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company (Power Fist)
1 Razorback (Twin Linked Heavy Flamer)
Heavy Support: Dreadnought (1#, 120 pts)
1 Dreadnought @ 120 pts (Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)
Heavy Support: Dreadnought (1#, 120 pts)
1 Dreadnought @ 120 pts (Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)
Total Roster Cost: 1750
Deploy a 'Rifleman' (Twin-Linked Autocannon) Dreadnought in each corner of your deployment zone to give you maximum coverage and hopefully some shots into side armour. Drive the Rhino's forward 18" and pop smoke, Jump Mephiston and the Dreadnoughts up behind them. Then whatever your opponent doesn't destroy kicks him right in the bollocks on turn 2 ;-)
Cheers GMort, didn't realise you would have this up so quick!
ReplyDeletePutting aside the dislike of Razorbacks, is TL Heavy Flamer RBs with 5man assault squads generally seen as a better choice?
@Jason - It depends what sort of army your going for.
ReplyDelete5 Man Blood Angels squads are viable as the Sergeants ability to take an Inferno Pistol means you can still get 2 Melta weapons in a small unit (or even 2 Flamer weapons if you so require). Assault Cannon Razorbacks are also a popular alternative but you need lots of them for it to be an effective build.
Razorback builds with Heavy Flamers require a bit of practice to use as you need to get the hang of 'Tank-Shocking' a unit into a Flamer friendly (or unfriendly, depending on your point of view) formation and then toasting it.
So in answer to your question. 'Better' is a matter of perspective really it's just a different style of build that's all.
Incoming question barrage!
ReplyDeleteFrom what I gather 5Ed is all about Mech, is that why Rifleman Dreads are superior to Devastator Squads?
@Jason - Its only really a choice you have to make with Blood Angels as the Rifleman variant is a Heavy Support choice, All other Marine Codices get Rifleman Dreads as Elites.
ReplyDeleteBlood Angel Devastators and Space Wolf Long Fangs become viable because they're cheaper compared to the equivalent unit in the Standard Space Marine book.
@Jason the Heavy Flamer razorback makes a really good oh god oh god i must kill it distraction all for 55pts and they have the pratical use of being twin linked they can attack light vehicles with a re-roll and would get 2 hits VS open topped stuff.
ReplyDeleteSka_punk_boy makes an excellent point, S5 vs. Armour 10 or even 11 doesn't seem very good until you take into account that you basically get 2 attempts at penetration which ups the odds considerably in your favour. Even a Glancing hit that stops a Razorback from shooting you for a turn is a nice bonus. If you can catch a Landspeeder with it you basically have a 1 in 3 chance of a penetrating hit.
ReplyDeleteNot bad for a free upgrade.
So what happens if you drive it up and fail to pop a Rhino? Try to Melta gun it down, then assault the occupants?
ReplyDeleteYour Autocannon Dreads should pop light transports will relative ease.
ReplyDeleteBut every unit in the list has a way of popping vehicles whether it be Melta, Blood Lance or just plain old fashioned punching it.
Unfortunately there is no such thing as a perfect army. Sometimes all your meltas will miss or roll 1's for damage or whatever. That's why one of the main secrets to good list writing is redundancy. Every unit should have anti-tank and anti-infantry capability.
The honour guard squad... how useful is that?
ReplyDeleteIs it worth giving the DC more bling (Storm Shield, THammers etc) to be more scary?
@Jason
ReplyDeleteThe DC can't have stormshields as this would probley go against them trying to rip and tear at stuff. But seriously blinging up the DC is not a great plan as looking at them its gonna be 30pts for a thunder hammer which is worth 1.5 DC and becayse they are so uncontrollable once they leave the razorback making them expensive isnt great, give them a fist to deal with MC and vehicles but apart from that it would be a waste
@Jason - Honour Guard give you a unit with a Blood Chalice, in many ways they're a better way of getting that Furious Charge, Feel no Pain bubble than Priests. If your using full units of Assault Marines in Rhino's you'd need to drop a man so there is space for a Priest which also means you'd have to drop a Meltagun Marine. If your going down that path then your better off switching to Razorbacks which is a different type of army altogether.
ReplyDeleteDeath Company already have all the tools they need to be a scary unit 'built-in', WS 5, Furious Charge, Feel no Pain etc.
Though it may be tempting to tool them up with various extra equipment that makes them expensive points-wise very quickly and you'll never get a good return on that investment.
Once they're out of their Transport they can be fed sacrificial units or made to chase around things they can't catch (or hurt) relatively easily due to 'Rage'. All those extra points people waste on extra equipment can easily buy you another unit of something else.
There werent any Razorbacks pree heresey, not so certain about tl weapons on dreads either...
ReplyDelete@yxfilm - Yep, which is why we had the discussion and Jason decided he didn't care particularly about what was fluffy (I mention that 4th paragraphs from the top).
ReplyDeleteOf course all Imperial Technology is based around STC (Standard Template Construct) and that was all available millennia before the Heresy. So if we're being picky there was more advanced technology available before the heresy than after, lol.